AVERY! You all warned me!

[jkdbjj]

looks like heavy mottling, I'd bark back at Fellers and/or try going to a different source in Avery. Did you reach out to Linda there?

Yeah have an email out to her. I thought she was a decent lady. I met her out in Texas, and I hope she will step up.
Fellers should step up too.
At the end of the day, I feel destined to just turn into a jerk and start treating these people how they treat others. But then I remember the Golden rule and try to refocus.

 

[Gino]

I know I posted that Feller's backed us up and gave us credit, but I still feel it wasn't their need to do so, but just a very fine gesture on their part.

If I buy a large tool or product at Home Depot and something goes bad.... I maybe can take it back and return the item, but if something needs to be investigated, for the most part, I have to deal with the manufacturer. My warranty is with them. It's not Home Depot's guarantee.

I got a car one time and the manufacturer would not replace the entire car, although in less than 8 months we went through two engines, three transmissions, an air-conditioning unit, two sets of front rotors.... along with multiple other parts and while the dealership preformed all the work, the manufacturer said, we'll swap you out 10 motors before we give you a new car. I was paying for a 740il which was in the shop so much and I was driving a VW Jetta most of the time. Go figure, paying on the BMW and constantly driving a Jetta. I was p!ssed. Finally the dealership let me bring the car back and gave me almost all of my money back and I never looked back. The dealership paid because Northwestern BMW would not budge and I was threatening on a local level.

I was later told, had I had a 5 series, I could've gotten anything I wanted, but not on the new 740's.

 

[jkdbjj]

I know I posted that Feller's backed us up and gave us credit, but I still feel it wasn't their need to do so, but just a very fine gesture on their part.

If I buy a large tool or product at Home Depot and something goes bad.... I maybe can take it back and return the item, but if something needs to be investigated, for the most part, I have to deal with the manufacturer. My warranty is with them. It's not Home Depot's guarantee.

I got a car one time and the manufacturer would not replace the entire car, although in less than 8 months we went through two engines, three transmissions, an air-conditioning unit, two sets of front rotors.... along with multiple other parts and while the dealership preformed all the work, the manufacturer said, we'll swap you out 10 motors before we give you a new car. I was paying for a 740il which was in the shop so much and I was driving a VW Jetta most of the time. Go figure, paying on the BMW and constantly driving a Jetta. I was p!ssed. Finally the dealership let me bring the car back and gave me almost all of my money back and I never looked back. The dealership paid because Northwestern BMW would not budge and I was threatening on a local level.

I was later told, had I had a 5 series, I could've gotten anything I wanted, but not on the new 740's.

In this case I went to both.
I have been loyal from day one to Fellers, mainly because the sales team has always helped out. That is the main reason I included them in the discussion. Plus, Avery was going to want to know who sold it anyway.

Still haven't heard back from anyone, but it is still early on a Monday.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Personally, any distributor that tries to sell us Avery hasn't "helped out", they are trying to help the manufacture out. And honestly if you've had bad luck with the film like we have, replacing a roll of faulty material with another roll of that same brand is also not helping out. Trying to get a refund then switching to a different brand is probably the best solution.

 

[tsgstl]

I have had bad luck with Fellers fixing anything. Thats why I always try my best to support "local suppliers" Last year we had a roll of 3m wrap film and it had a crease in the center of about 20 something yards. I took it down there and they replaced it on the spot. They didn't have it in my size and they cut down a larger roll. They said it would take months to get 3m to do anything about it. It was still sitting there 3 months after the fact. I rarely complain but have never had a problem that I can remember after 20 years of dealing with the 2 local companies.

 

[jkdbjj]

Some of our local companies have gone under, and it may just be because of issues like this. They eat it and the manufacturer doesn't help.

 

[signage]

I wonder what Avery gives Justin to keep pushing new people to the Avery nightmare's?

 

[jkdbjj]

I wonder what Avery gives Justin to keep pushing new people to the Avery nightmare's?

Bread and a roof over his family's head I imagine.

 

[GAC05]

I wonder what Avery gives Justin to keep pushing new people to the Avery nightmare's?

http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/80802128/

 

[JBarraxSW]

Folks I don't mean to be contrary, but it's possible the problem is not in the overlaminate. IF you're printing with a solvent based ink, a cold laminator is always the recommended method. Most eco-solvent printers uses heat to open the pores of your media and allow it to penetrate and saturate the face film. If you heat it again during lamination, you can reactivate the inks and cause chemical reactions between the vinyl and overlaminate film; which could cause the blotchiness you're seeing.
Try using some of the same overlam (if you have any left) without heat and see if it makes a difference.

 

[qmr55]

Folks I don't mean to be contrary, but it's possible the problem is not in the overlaminate. IF you're printing with a solvent based ink, a cold laminator is always the recommended method. Most eco-solvent printers uses heat to open the pores of your media and allow it to penetrate and saturate the face film. If you heat it again during lamination, you can reactivate the inks and cause chemical reactions between the vinyl and overlaminate film; which could cause the blotchiness you're seeing.
Try using some of the same overlam (if you have any left) without heat and see if it makes a difference.

Look at his pictures, the laminate has blotches before it is even put through the machine with heat assist.

 

[crystalcoastgraphics]

It's heat assisted laminator, not a hot one like you are thinking. And it helps a lot with mottling and silvering. At least in our experience

 

[visual800]

IMO when you buy something thru a distributor THAT distributor should bust their a$$ when a product fails. If they do not, dump them. Avery since the first time it was hell will NEVER be used by me again. You were warned and should not have used. small claims court is nothing but a waste of your time. I would simply not buy their products and blast them on every website you can log in on. belwive me it will get their attention.

 

[TallTechGuy]

Avery Dennison Responds

jkdbjj / Mike-
I am a representative of Avery Dennison, the Tech Manager responding to your posting . We provided a full material refund on the claim which was submitted in January of this year and we did so within a week of receiving this claim.
This January claim was supported by a sample which showed a rare instance of severe mottle which high gloss conformable films can sometimes exhibit.

I was able to find your original submission from November, and I have that sample in my possession. This sample does not show any of the issues seen in the second sample we received in January, and does not show any mottle, which is why we denied the November claim. We do have that sample on file for review. Again, the re-submission of mid January, did show serious mottle which did not go away with heat, and was verified within one week. .

Two Avery Dennison representatives (Linda and Dave) spoke to you yesterday, and did not have a chance to fully investigate your issue and respond until now.

So what is Mottle?
Mottle is something that occurs from time to time on most glossy films in our market regardless of manufacturer. It is caused by pressure and heat on super conformable films where the face takes on a matte finish in some areas. As you see from various postings, it happens on competitive products too. Minor mottle can typically be removed using a heat gun or torch or it will go away with heat or in the sun is true.
On some rarer occasions the mottle does not go away no matter how much heat is used. When this happens, it is important that when you speak with your distributor sales rep or your Avery rep that you let them know that you did try using heat to remove the mottle. This will help both parties respond properly, and provide the feedback and support to help make you a satisfied customer.
We at Avery Dennison take quality very seriously, and are continuously working to have a better customer experience with our products, and processes. If you have issues, as always let your dealer know, and they can contact us immediately to initiate the processing of your concerns. Keeping the dealer in the loop helps at the end the day, so all parties are aware of what may be happening.
In addition to contacting your sales/customer representative at your dealer, feel free to email the Avery Dennison Technical Support Group at grpd.technicalservice@averydennison.com
The regional representative will be happy to work with you .
We're confident in our product and we appreciate that, like you, so many of our customers have gone through our training sessions and have switched to the Avery Dennison products. We deeply regret this particular hiccup in resolving your claim, and we appreciate that the timing was not seen as proactive. Nevertheless, we hope this information is useful and we continue to stand behind our products and customers.

Paul Roba

 

[Gino]

And there ya go.....................

 

[jkdbjj]

jkdbjj / Mike-
I am a representative of Avery Dennison, the Tech Manager responding to your posting . We provided a full material refund on the claim which was submitted in January of this year and we did so within a week of receiving this claim.
This January claim was supported by a sample which showed a rare instance of severe mottle which high gloss conformable films can sometimes exhibit.

I was able to find your original submission from November, and I have that sample in my possession. This sample does not show any of the issues seen in the second sample we received in January, and does not show any mottle, which is why we denied the November claim. We do have that sample on file for review. Again, the re-submission of mid January, did show serious mottle which did not go away with heat, and was verified within one week. .

Two Avery Dennison representatives (Linda and Dave) spoke to you yesterday, and did not have a chance to fully investigate your issue and respond until now.

So what is Mottle?
Mottle is something that occurs from time to time on most glossy films in our market regardless of manufacturer. It is caused by pressure and heat on super conformable films where the face takes on a matte finish in some areas. As you see from various postings, it happens on competitive products too. Minor mottle can typically be removed using a heat gun or torch or it will go away with heat or in the sun is true.
On some rarer occasions the mottle does not go away no matter how much heat is used. When this happens, it is important that when you speak with your distributor sales rep or your Avery rep that you let them know that you did try using heat to remove the mottle. This will help both parties respond properly, and provide the feedback and support to help make you a satisfied customer.
We at Avery Dennison take quality very seriously, and are continuously working to have a better customer experience with our products, and processes. If you have issues, as always let your dealer know, and they can contact us immediately to initiate the processing of your concerns. Keeping the dealer in the loop helps at the end the day, so all parties are aware of what may be happening.
In addition to contacting your sales/customer representative at your dealer, feel free to email the Avery Dennison Technical Support Group at grpd.technicalservice@averydennison.com
The regional representative will be happy to work with you .
We're confident in our product and we appreciate that, like you, so many of our customers have gone through our training sessions and have switched to the Avery Dennison products. We deeply regret this particular hiccup in resolving your claim, and we appreciate that the timing was not seen as proactive. Nevertheless, we hope this information is useful and we continue to stand behind our products and customers.

Paul Roba

Thanks for the response.
As you can see from this thread, there are mixed ideas about how to approach a defect like this. Is it dealer issue, manufacturer issue, both parties, etc...
I look forward to this getting resolved, and I appreciate you getting on top of this. I'll be looking to hear of resolution in the next few days hopefully.

Regards,
Mike

 

[tsgstl]

Is it dealer issue, manufacturer issue, both parties, etc...

IMO it's the dealers problem. If I sell a product that fails I don't tell them to call the manufacturer. The man in the hat failed you as he has to many others. That's why they only get my ink sales and anything I can't get anywhere else. Price is secondary to customer service in my book.

 

[HulkSmash]

Folks I don't mean to be contrary, but it's possible the problem is not in the overlaminate. IF you're printing with a solvent based ink, a cold laminator is always the recommended method. Most eco-solvent printers uses heat to open the pores of your media and allow it to penetrate and saturate the face film. If you heat it again during lamination, you can reactivate the inks and cause chemical reactions between the vinyl and overlaminate film; which could cause the blotchiness you're seeing.
Try using some of the same overlam (if you have any left) without heat and see if it makes a difference.

um no. Heat assist will play no part in that. You're thinking of an encapsulating lam. Trust me without heat it's much worse.

This is a lam issue that avery has had for a while.

 

[piddyman]

MH - Needless to say I'm sorry that you had these issues with Avery film, especially right after taking the workshop. Based on everything posted so far, I am inclined to agree with Jerry concerning the laminating process and solvent inks. I'm guessing if that was the case then Avery tested your sample using the standard cold lam process and that's why they found nothing wrong. I readily admit I was less than thrilled with Avery for several years based on what happened to their 1005 EZ many years ago. I vowed never to touch their stuff but came around based on the product they have now, the quality control and the follow up they have if something goes wrong. I would suggest you send Linda another e-mail about what happened so she can put you in touch with the tech reps in your area. I would think they can schedule a time to come in and see the product and also give an overview to the printing/lam process to see if everything is in order. If you don't hear from her by Friday send me an e-mail (you should have it from the workshop) and I'll contact the reps in your area so they can follow up. I think its important to point out that for the first few years I taught the hands-on workshops for Mutoh there was no sponsor for the films. in 2010, they asked who should sponsor the entire year and I chose Avery over the other brands. I did so because I truly feel that the 1005 EZRS and 1360 DOL combo is tough to beat in terms of quality of print, ease of install and price point. In Europe I work for 3M and in Brazil for a private film manufacturer called Alltak so I'm certainly not beholden to Avery. Yes, they do pay some of my bills but I represent them first and foremost because I believe in the product. Again, that all said, sorry that you had any issues at all but I think they can be solved in short order. I hope all is well on your end otherwise.
Justin

 

[jkdbjj]

MH - Needless to say I'm sorry that you had these issues with Avery film, especially right after taking the workshop. Based on everything posted so far, I am inclined to agree with Jerry concerning the laminating process and solvent inks. I'm guessing if that was the case then Avery tested your sample using the standard cold lam process and that's why they found nothing wrong. I readily admit I was less than thrilled with Avery for several years based on what happened to their 1005 EZ many years ago. I vowed never to touch their stuff but came around based on the product they have now, the quality control and the follow up they have if something goes wrong. I would suggest you send Linda another e-mail about what happened so she can put you in touch with the tech reps in your area. I would think they can schedule a time to come in and see the product and also give an overview to the printing/lam process to see if everything is in order. If you don't hear from her by Friday send me an e-mail (you should have it from the workshop) and I'll contact the reps in your area so they can follow up. I think its important to point out that for the first few years I taught the hands-on workshops for Mutoh there was no sponsor for the films. in 2010, they asked who should sponsor the entire year and I chose Avery over the other brands. I did so because I truly feel that the 1005 EZRS and 1360 DOL combo is tough to beat in terms of quality of print, ease of install and price point. In Europe I work for 3M and in Brazil for a private film manufacturer called Alltak so I'm certainly not beholden to Avery. Yes, they do pay some of my bills but I represent them first and foremost because I believe in the product. Again, that all said, sorry that you had any issues at all but I think they can be solved in short order. I hope all is well on your end otherwise.
Justin

Thanks Justin.
In this case, it seemed the laminate was messed up even before touching the laminator.
I really do enjoy installing the Avery films, and I think this situation is simply a lot of miscommunication. Looks like it is getting sorted out.

I am just leery of the quality of the products from roll to roll at this point.

I recommend people all the time to your class, hope you have another successful year.