15k to start, what to buy? (printer, cutter + maybe laminator)

[hazelsmrf]

I have 15k Canadian to invest in some equipment. My intent is to have a less labor intensive process for making my vinyl labels, as well as open some new opportunities.

So 1) I do not need my labels to be particularly durable, they will not be in direct sunlight or outside, though I will be making some wine labels so some will be submerged in water. My main products are name labels (to stick on shirts or items, non permanent) and vinyl stickers for photography props.

2) Cutting accuracy is more important to me than speed. I produce some pretty tiny decals and right now my hobby grade cutter (KNK Zing) is just not accurate enough on the small decals. Over a 12X22 inch sheet there is visible shift so the decals at the end of the sheet are off and I get a lot of waste that way.

3) I have the space for a 54" printer though do not need it, I'd be absolutely OK with a 24" as none of the decals I am producing are larger than 8 inches, and I'm not intending to compete with other businesses for car wraps or large signage.

4) I am not producing in high enough volumes that a machine that both prints and cuts would be a negative, I see that it is faster to print on one and then move to a cutter but it's not like I'm going to be printing 24 hours a day so that aspect is less important to me.

Some options that I have right now:

New: Mutoh VJ628 + Graphtec CE6000 for ~9000$ CAD plus tax.

Used: Roland VP-540 + laminator for 10k CAD no tax

So, do I need a laminator? Will my wine labels printed on vinyl be durable enough to survive an ice bucket? Are there any other considerations that I'm not thinking about? I am assuming that the ink costs for Roland and Mutoh would be comparable?

Also bonus question: Any suggestion on the best vinyl for my use? I need something thin and preferably with a paper liner, I have a roll right now that's on a transparent plastic liner and I hate it!

-Julie

 

[GAC05]

If all your stuff is going to be small you should be able to get by with a hand cranked laminator like they use in photo print shops (if there is still such a shop)
I'd go with new equipment if it is within your budget over used. Less wondering if it is operator or equipment failure at the beginning.



wayne k
guam usa

 

[SignMeUpGraphics]

Look into tangential cutters if you need small scale accuracy.
Drag knives won't be too friendly at smaller sizes.

 

[Snydo]

Look into tangential cutters if you need small scale accuracy.
Drag knives won't be too friendly at smaller sizes.

Not true, drags are just as accurate as tangential....if you are doing tiny intricate 1/4" designs then yes I would consider a tangential as that is where they outperform a drag.

For what you are trying to do you might want to look into a high quality desktop printer, something like an Epson Stylus Pro for a couple thousand bucks for example, which I'm pretty sure would print on vinyl sheets or rolls(17" wide) ~ I'm sure there are many other options that would be way cheaper than a solvent printer and better suited. Most desktop printers would use a pigment based ink, but if you use a UV resistant laminate it should last many months even outdoors or in a wine bucket.

The smallest Summa plotter is a 30" for 4.5k and will be worth every Loonie.

As Wayne suggested a high quality hand laminator should suffice nicely.

This should bring you in somewhere around half your budget or less. Good Luck.

 

[BigfishDM]

I have 15k Canadian to invest in some equipment. My intent is to have a less labor intensive process for making my vinyl labels, as well as open some new opportunities.

So 1) I do not need my labels to be particularly durable, they will not be in direct sunlight or outside, though I will be making some wine labels so some will be submerged in water. My main products are name labels (to stick on shirts or items, non permanent) and vinyl stickers for photography props.

2) Cutting accuracy is more important to me than speed. I produce some pretty tiny decals and right now my hobby grade cutter (KNK Zing) is just not accurate enough on the small decals. Over a 12X22 inch sheet there is visible shift so the decals at the end of the sheet are off and I get a lot of waste that way.

3) I have the space for a 54" printer though do not need it, I'd be absolutely OK with a 24" as none of the decals I am producing are larger than 8 inches, and I'm not intending to compete with other businesses for car wraps or large signage.

4) I am not producing in high enough volumes that a machine that both prints and cuts would be a negative, I see that it is faster to print on one and then move to a cutter but it's not like I'm going to be printing 24 hours a day so that aspect is less important to me.

Some options that I have right now:

New: Mutoh VJ628 + Graphtec CE6000 for ~9000$ CAD plus tax.

Used: Roland VP-540 + laminator for 10k CAD no tax

So, do I need a laminator? Will my wine labels printed on vinyl be durable enough to survive an ice bucket? Are there any other considerations that I'm not thinking about? I am assuming that the ink costs for Roland and Mutoh would be comparable?

Also bonus question: Any suggestion on the best vinyl for my use? I need something thin and preferably with a paper liner, I have a roll right now that's on a transparent plastic liner and I hate it!

-Julie

So many options honestly, but if it was me personally I would spend that money on marketing and outsource the decals. You can call me if you want other options but I don't think you have enough money yet to do it the most efficient way to be the most profitable.

 

[hazelsmrf]

For what you are trying to do you might want to look into a high quality desktop printer, something like an Epson Stylus Pro for a couple thousand bucks for example, which I'm pretty sure would print on vinyl sheets or rolls(17" wide) ~ I'm sure there are many other options that would be way cheaper than a solvent printer and better suited. Most desktop printers would use a pigment based ink, but if you use a UV resistant laminate it should last many months even outdoors or in a wine bucket.

The smallest Summa plotter is a 30" for 4.5k and will be worth every Loonie.

I was really considering the Summa or the Graphtec with the pounce cut option, since I do a lot of die cuts and not having to use a carrier sheet would be really good!

I'm currently using an aqueous inkjet so I'm already set up for the high quality desktop prints, the problem there is there is much much less choice for inkjet compatible vinyl and it tends to be expensive. While the solvent printer would be a big upfront expense, my per item cost would go down and my manual labor would also go down, which would allow me to lower my prices a bit and sell in larger quantities. Right now my products are priced at a premium and they do sell, but in order to reach a broader market I need to bring the cost down or make the process waaaay less manual. Right now I am printing on sheets as my printer does not have a roll feed, which means I need to manually load each sheet into my cutter. If I were to buy a good quality 24" or higher aqueous printer it would still cost me a few thousand dollars and I'd still be dealing with expensive media. (Right now I'm printing on HP Everyday Matte Vinyl and the liner is awful, I really need a paper liner and so far all the options I've found are double the cost)

Hand crank laminator really seems to be the way to go. Applying it by hand with a squeegee has been... frustrating.

 

[hazelsmrf]

So many options honestly, but if it was me personally I would spend that money on marketing and outsource the decals. You can call me if you want other options but I don't think you have enough money yet to do it the most efficient way to be the most profitable.

It's not really profitable for me to outsource since a lot of my products are one off personalized items, so no bulk pricing. I'm a graphic designer selling my own designs so the printing is really my only cost, other than my time. I'm not really printing as a service, I'm selling my art on vinyl. In order for me to make the same amount of money if I outsourced, I'd have to sell many times more than I am currently selling. My margins are awesome right now (less than 2$ in cost, sell for 12-15$), I'd love to keep them and just sell in higher volume.

 

[hazelsmrf]

Not true, drags are just as accurate as tangential....if you are doing tiny intricate 1/4" designs then yes I would consider a tangential as that is where they outperform a drag.

My smallest decal is 0.5" X 1". I design them all with bleed so I do have some wiggle room, but it still needs to be something that's repeatable. It's never a problem to cut out 10 of them, it's a problem when I cut out 100 at once, the first 10 are great and then it starts to be off the mark and the last ones are just garbage.

 

[hazelsmrf]

I guess right now I *need* a good cutter. The solvent printer would be a nice to have but I already have 3 aqueous printers and my product quality is fine. I was just thinking that a solvent printer might lower my per-item cost, or that a print/cut combined would lower my manual labor by hours (Which is not trivial as it takes me away from actually *designing*). Maybe I was way overestimating how much time a print/cut system would save me. The thought of sending all my jobs to print and not having to touch them again, that seemed like bliss!

 

[OldPaint]

so iam seeing you are already a production shop. and with what your asking for.......i would look at a roland PRINT/CUT 30" if you can get one or a 54" at a good price. with a 54" you can run 24", 30", 36", 48" material when ever you need to.

 

[hazelsmrf]

so iam seeing you are already a production shop. and with what your asking for.......i would look at a roland PRINT/CUT 30" if you can get one or a 54" at a good price. with a 54" you can run 24", 30", 36", 48" material when ever you need to.

Very very small shop, more like a computer and some printers and a few lackluster cutters I'm self employed and do this from my home.

My question for the print and cut machines, does that impact the longevity or the maintenance needed, my cutter does generate some dust on paper media, I'm not sure if vinyl would fix that issue, is that typically a problem with those printers? Dust/dirt from cutting? Would an all-in-one option like that be accurate for cutting small decals? Most of my decals do not require lamination so the print/cut would work fine all at once. I only really need lamination for some niche products.

Size-wise, my aqueous inkjet printable vinyl is mostly in rolls of 24", but most of the solvent vinyl I see seems to be mostly available in 54", so if I had anything smaller I'd have to cut the rolls down. I did this once at home with my miter saw, not sure if I want to do that again!

 

[1leonchen]

Solvent is good for short production runs of random or short production labels. What type of cuts u do square with or without rounded corners or contour shape cuts. I see u more with a small commercial Digital press a full-time hydraulic cutter and a commercial corner rounder. Good luck.

 

[hazelsmrf]

Those sound expensive! I have a lot of variation in my shapes, a lot of them are custom and so a REAL die cutter with plates wouldn't work for me. As an example, this month I designed a bunch of retro 50s women (advertising style), they're each about 2 inches high, in different poses, so they all have different cut lines. These are a set of stickers meant to stick to paper, they're decoration. I sell baby stickers, they are ALL 4 inch circles, but what I did there is I bought a commercial label printer and that's all I print on them, so I buy the stock already die cut and on rolls. This option is really only good for that one product though because the sizes are all the same, for the rest... think back to the 80s when we all had sticker collections. Those are the kind of shapes that I'm making, colorful, bright, in sizes of 0.5 to 8 inches, in all shapes (stars, custom, circles, rectangles etc).

Here's an example of something that I am currently producing, the black lines are my cut lines. For reference, this sheet is about 5X7 inches, the smallest gift box is about 0.5"X0.5". http://imgur.com/ks2YtYc

 

[inkfrog]

Have you considered a used HP Latex machine with a separate cutter. Prints come off dry, the media isnt expensive like your aqueous set up. The print is fairly robust. Some good deals on second user 26500 and 25500 machines (dealer supplied with some warranty) You can find 3rd party inks for it. If you are going to invest in kit then you also want to bring your production cost per unit down as well as be able to increase production etc.

 

[bigben]

Maybe I could help you with your production. I have the large format printer (HP L26500), a summa cutter, a gerber edge printer and a gerber envision cutter. If you want really good accuracy, the envision cutter is really good. I do lots of lablels, so I think I could help you.

 

[boxerbay]

if your issue is your trying to push down costs then maybe switch the media to a cheaper media. lexjet has aquavinyl PSA it is cheaper than the HP stuff. or switch the material to polypropylene which is cheaper than vinyl.

 

[BigfishDM]

It's not really profitable for me to outsource since a lot of my products are one off personalized items, so no bulk pricing. I'm a graphic designer selling my own designs so the printing is really my only cost, other than my time. I'm not really printing as a service, I'm selling my art on vinyl. In order for me to make the same amount of money if I outsourced, I'd have to sell many times more than I am currently selling. My margins are awesome right now (less than 2$ in cost, sell for 12-15$), I'd love to keep them and just sell in higher volume.

I understand. How big are your works of art that you put onto vinyl normally?

 

[Tizz]

If I were to start over again I'd buy a summa 140, the vp540, manual lam and quality vinyl.

 

[hazelsmrf]

if your issue is your trying to push down costs then maybe switch the media to a cheaper media. lexjet has aquavinyl PSA it is cheaper than the HP stuff. or switch the material to polypropylene which is cheaper than vinyl.

The HP Everyday Matte that I'm using is polypropylene but I absolutely hate it. It was really cheap, 112$ for 2 rolls of 24"X75'. My cost per set on that is very low, 45 cents USD. When I pump it up to my other material, which is the Inkpress adhesive vinyl, it goes up to 1.20$ per set, so nearly 3 times the price. But if I switched to Avery with a solvent printer, the price per set would be 45 cents Canadian, so the cheapest of them all.

I am using the assumption that solvent inks would be cheaper than my aqueous art printers, from what I've read online it seems that it would be, but I don't know from firsthand experience.

I've been frustrated by the business to business places that sell these things. They won't give me an account because i'm not already in business using it, but I can't price things or buy them without an account, it seems to be kind of a chicken and the egg thing. They won't sell to you unless you're already buying the stuff but you can't buy the stuff until you have an account.

 

[hazelsmrf]

I understand. How big are your works of art that you put onto vinyl normally?

Well right now I'm not printing anything larger than a 5X7, I don't have any current plans to do large wall graphics or things like that although obviously if I had the equipment that was capable of it - it would be a business that made sense with my products. My niche is nursery/baby/children, so vinyl wall coverings would fit into that, but I don't currently produce them.