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3M™ MCS™ Warranty for Traffic Printer question

Commando

New Member
Wow, thanks for the response Commando. I may have misunderstood, I thought maybe the certification was because of special inks or something. Appreciate your help, although now I am concerned that buying the HP365 might be a mistake. In all honesty we are not trying to become this huge municipal sign maker. We actually sell novelty street signs but some of our customers like to use them outside down by their driveway. Our website clearly says our signs are not DOT approved so maybe we need to look for another option. We use to print reflective diamond grade with our JF1631 flatbed and the ink held great, now we have JFX200 and the ink is flaking off in under 6 months so just looking for a solution for our novelty signs.
If you have a plotter, I would recommend 3M EC film reversed over HIP. Thats what we did before 3M shoved the latex printer down our throats. They wont warrantee it but im not sure its even worth it, if its not your biggest base like it is ours..
Do you laminate the ink you print? We laminate everything except for temporary construction signs, small stickers and indoor novelty.
 

balstestrat

Problem Solver

Commando

New Member
??? He never once asked about special ink. He asked what printer he could use for the 3M Traffic MCS warranty. Look at post #1.
I do have a follow up question, if we go with the HP365 I assume 3M will provide the exact inks that need to be used. SO my question is I am sure the HP365 can print in other capacities, banners other vinyl etc. So are these 3M inks more expensive making the machine use hard to use for other applications once we plug in using the 3M inks?
 

ikarasu

Active Member
We use HP ink and we are certified. 3M ink was never mentioned(if they even make that).Certification is the only reason we use those crappy printers. But we have to. Our biggest customer base is local and state municipalities. Who, BTW, often bid out for HIP and Diamond grade. Or simply wont have any other sheeting. Like DOT. In fact, DOT, only wants screen printing on many of their signs. Dont ask me why lol.
The 365 can do 3M 3290 and non reflective, too. We often use oracal NR. Banner printing is fine, too. I prefer solvent ink for banners, though.
Print on some 3290, take a washcloth and rub it a little bit... :) one guy on here printed a bunch of signs on 3290, didn't overlam it since they were temp....and within a week he got a call because they turned into blanks.

3290 is not latex compatible and 3m won't warranty it. In a pinch it may work if you overlam it...but the ink doesn't adhere, you can take a piece of tape and rip the ink off... So I don't think overlam will stay on for too long.
 

jdwilliams1

New Member
So it sounds like to me if we want to be a player in the DOT sign industry, the HP365 is a good place to start. It will allow us to print other products as well, like banners and vinyl. I am concerned some of you are not real happy with the printer. Is it a printer that is going to give us fits?
 

ikarasu

Active Member
It's not a bad printer. It's just a generation behind... The 560 prints with the same inks, however 3m won't certify it.

I hate loading it, especially traffic... The bar is so fragile, we can only put the end caps on one side.... And I Think it was in the $750 range for a new one.

The 560 loads way better... But yes.. If you.want to do dot, with 3m, you buy a 360 or spend a hundred grand on a durst.


You could go avery or nikkalite though.... Avery is generally cheaper.... Their machine is a solvent. Nikkalite machine is a Oki, also a solvent and a great machine.


You do have options if you don't like the idea of a latex.
 

balstestrat

Problem Solver
I am concerned some of you are not real happy with the printer. Is it a printer that is going to give us fits?
Remember to take it with a grain of salt. There's tens of thousands of those printers out there and only a handful of people complaining here. You can find someone complaining about any make or model out there. Nothings perfect.
 

Commando

New Member
Print on some 3290, take a washcloth and rub it a little bit... :) one guy on here printed a bunch of signs on 3290, didn't overlam it since they were temp....and within a week he got a call because they turned into blanks.

3290 is not latex compatible and 3m won't warranty it. In a pinch it may work if you overlam it...but the ink doesn't adhere, you can take a piece of tape and rip the ink off... So I don't think overlam will stay on for too long.
We havent had a problem in around 4 years or so.
 

TrustMoore_TN

Sign & Graphics Business Consultant
To get into the traffic signage industry, there's a few things to understand. I was with OKI as a regional sales manager for Colorpainter before Mimaki took over the sales/service. The key word here is whether you'll be printing "Regulated" DOT Signage. There are different regulations for Federal Highways, as well as State. Most local governments follow state regulations. If the sign required to conform to DOT regulations, then it can only be produced by methods prescribed by the regulation. Screenprinting, Cut Vinyl Overlay on Vinyl, and digital printing. For Digital Printing, the regulations also state specifically what sheeting, inks and overlaminate must be used. Certain states only allow certain sheeting. Some haven't approved Digital Printing at all and some have approved digital, but not the specific "recipe" that has to be used. OKI developed the M64s-Nikkalite version to be paired with a specific Nikkalite sheeting. TX DOT approved the printer, inks, sheeting and overlaminate that have to be used. The attached letter is specifically for the OKI "Recipe" but I'm sure each manufacturer has their own certification letter. The nikkalite

There are many traffic signs applications that aren't regulated. As you mentioned, Novelty signs, and pretty much any reflective sign that isn't on a "regulated" roadway. The issue is, if you want to get into the traffic sign business, and produce regulated signs, then you'll have to go through the process of getting approved by the regulating authority, and the sheeting supplier will need to certify you for the warranty. For instance, just because you use inks/material/laminate that is certified by the 3M, doesn't mean that 3M will honor the MCS Traffic warranty. They come in periodically to "certify" you. I haven't been through this process myself, but I spoke in depth with a 3M traffic sheeting rep that mentioned it, and they want to see your working conditions, how you store your media, etc. And many times 3M provides sheeting directly to the traffic printing companies instead of through vendors. I know Grimco carries some of the different DOT grade sheeting, but I think they can get a better price by going direct.

Also, I can echo what some have said about the 365 being used for traffic signs... We placed at least 5 machines in existing traffic print shops, and each one of them had the 365 that 3M had "subsidized" because of the volume of sheeting that they were buying. None of them were using the latex anymore because of issues with speed, color and ink durability, plus the other issues with Flexi that have been mentioned.

TLDR: I would stick to what you're doing now, unless you want to jump into traffic signs with both feet. Keep printing the novelty signs and you won't have to deal with the headaches.
 

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d fleming

New Member
I did a ton of dot work many years ago. All hard signs were coated in reflective. All 3m. All screen printed. By spec. Outlasted and outperformed anything else at the time. Before anyone even heard of digital printers in any size shop. For short orders we would use vinyl graphic but not very often as I had a stock built up on hand after a while. I did quite a bit of soft signage as well, did the sewing in shop after printing. Soft signs were webbed fabric and messy to print. Ink went through to table when printing and table had to be cleaned often. Fabric was printed with plastisol and solvent ink for hard signage. Sold it all off to go teach vocational and never picked it back up afterwards. Most of the barricade companies by that time had invested in their own screen print facilities. I am surprised that they do not spec a full solvent printer for this work now.
 

TrustMoore_TN

Sign & Graphics Business Consultant
To get into the traffic signage industry, there's a few things to understand. I was with OKI as a regional sales manager for Colorpainter before Mimaki took over the sales/service. The key word here is whether you'll be printing "Regulated" DOT Signage. There are different regulations for Federal Highways, as well as State. Most local governments follow state regulations. If the sign required to conform to DOT regulations, then it can only be produced by methods prescribed by the regulation. Screenprinting, Cut Vinyl Overlay on Vinyl, and digital printing. For Digital Printing, the

Here is a recent webinar that goes into a lot more about Regulated/Non Regulated signage + Mimaki's Colorpainter M64s Traffic Solution
 

bteifeld

Substratia Consulting,Printing,Ergosoft Reseller
I'm confused about something with the ink configuration on this printer. On one hand, they have claimed the printer can achieve all the required MUTCD colors using CcMmYKGy inks, and then they mention a set of spot color inks as well. Just wondering what is really going on here.
 

WYLDGFI

Merchant Member
This is what I received in email yesterday from an HP dealer....
Why are they not allowing Caldera or Onyx to partner up in this? Thats slap in the face to 2 MAJOR players in this world of software. 1500s are more likely to be run on either of those 2 RIPs vs flexi.
 

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Commando

New Member
This is what I received in email yesterday from an HP dealer....
Why are they not allowing Caldera or Onyx to partner up in this? Thats slap in the face to 2 MAJOR players in this world of software. 1500s are more likely to be run on either of those 2 RIPs vs flexi.
They monopolized the traffic industry. 3M has pretty much owned it for years, but now they brought in a crappy printer company and Flexi.
I do believe Flexi must be used because they teamed with 3M to create the traffic colors swatches in the program.
We even had to print samples to send in before being confirmed..
3M can do what they want and they know it.
 

bteifeld

Substratia Consulting,Printing,Ergosoft Reseller
Flexi is one of many possible technically appropriate options for printing, inclusive of Caldera, Onyx, Ergosoft, EFI, Colorgate, GMG, Wasatch- whatever RIP you want. The color swatches needed for traffic colors are just L*a*b* numbers that can be readily derived from the MUTCD specifications. These L*a*b* numbers can be put into any RIP's swatchbook-equivalent concept. The advantage some see with Flexi is because of the integration of a set of sign templates in its customized packaging for application to traffic sign design and printing. That same integration is possible with other workflows and RIPs, assuming that the regulatory and media/protectives warranty side can be convinced to recognize it as acceptable. Why should anyone care if you design in Illustrator, AutoCAD, or Flexidesigner? If you meet the specs on the regulatory side with your implementation, and the media/protectives manufacturers can be convinced to warranty it, you should be able to get and do the work. The problem is that the regulatory and certification processes as well as the media/protectives manufacturer warranties do not readily accommodate multiple compliant alternatives- they usually just narrowly specify every detail of exactly one accepted workflow/media/protective combination.
 
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