3M 8508 Laminate Shrinking... Tired of the Manufacturer Blaming us

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Has anyone experienced this on 3M 8508... In 2013/2104 They pushed us hard to switch to their 8508 Laminate stating its a cast film at a calendared price. It has turned in to a nightmare for us and we have replaced 20+ 100yrd rolls of this laminate. Funny thing is that we have never experienced this with any other film cast or calendared and this is happening when mating to either 3M 35, 40, & IJ180; Instant One Media; and Arlon films. This problem seems to have a random pattern and it can happen on our shop table or months after install.

The problem is the Laminate film is separating from its own adhesive and shrinking always towards the overall center. In some cases over 2" of shrinkage, and the adhesive is gooey and you can literally peel the top layer off or slide it around. Doesn't matter if its a full panel or contour cut they all do the same thing while the actual printable vinyl is fine other than the nasty adhesive left behind.

They have blamed our Inks (HP Latex 792, MCS certified mind you), or laminating process (Too much heat, too much pressure, etc), our install process, and even our choice of films (until they found out it happens on theirs too). All of this is bunk in my opinion as we have never dealt with this before on any other laminate.

I'm just tired of them saying we are the only ones experiencing this and am hoping someone else is in the same boat, eating $50,000+ dollars worth of print and labor is ridiculous to me.

 

[CanuckSigns]

OMG I really hope they step up to the plate for you!

The only time I've seen that is when we used a super cheap calendered laminate, and it took almost 3 years outside for it to happen

Hopefully they make this right for you, but my past experience with warrantee claims with vinyl manufactures makes me feel they won't. (I've never had to deal with 3M though)

 

[reQ]

8508 is complete garbage. Good for maybe 6 month. I personally never use it.

 

[Behrmon]

Like the vinyl and the 8518, don't care for the 8508, prefer Orafol 210. ? tho, you use heat w 8508?

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

They courted ua to change from Arlon 3220... Which we used on everything except for matched sets. They said it was a cast lam and was a cheaper option. It just has turned bad.

We needless to say stopped using it in favor of Avery 1360 as our go to lam. I've been dealing with this since 2014 and it looks to be pointless as its all our fault.

We have tried no heat (our normal method), with heat, slight tension, no tension, high tension, etc. All the same results. Worst case was literally next day on the work table the lam shurnk .25" on all sides.

 

[Snydo]

We stay far away from low end 3m products, so many issues and inconsistencies.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

We are working with multiple suppliers and a 3M direct rep. The suppliers are just as frustrated as I am. I would have never order it if it was a calendared film, but its listed and sold as a cast. The problem though is not so much the film but its bond to its adhesive layer, they just separate.

The most frustrating thing is that we kept quiet for over a year, paid out of pocket to fix issues and keep clients happy, only to continuously be given excuses of what we did wrong. So if this helps others who may run in to this have fire power against 3M, then I'll be happy.

The last thing we did was send back partial rolls along with some removed failed materials. Then they asked us to print more samples and laminate it with whatever laminate we have left for continued testing, which we have started to do.

We have since switched to Instant One Media for most of our printing and Avery for our difficult wraps. I can't recommend Don and Instant One Media more, they have always been there for us and their cast film is awesome for 90%+ of our needs. Their window film is great too, right on par with the beperf we were buying and with the great support of Don and his team. I guess the light for us in this situation is this 3M deal helped us find IOM.

 

[Dennis422]

I thought that it is well known that 3M has issues with their adhesive in the last year or two.
Common issue is adhesive separation from laminate or the vinyl.
I stay away from it

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

It hasn't been well known to us and they have always tried to make it like it was isolated.

Has anyone had this issue I can contact? I'd just like to get your info and maybe a couple pics of your issue. I would like to put together a report and push them harder.

Also considering going the legal route as it has financially hurt us paying all of this out of pocket

 

[d fleming]

Sounds like 3m is taking a page from the Avery handbook. Nothing but oracal in the shop for many years now. No problems.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

Yeah, We have been all over that. The one thing to our advantage is that they have a manufacturing defect guarantee and as far as we can tell this is definitely a manufacturing issue as their product is separating.

Between Initial Material, Initial Ink, Initial install labor, Replacement Material, Replacement Ink, Removal and ReInstall labor we are over $50,000. Any support from them would be nice but I'm hard pressed to believe that we will get any.

 

[Karen Souza]

I thought that it is well known that 3M has issues with their adhesive in the last year or two.
Common issue is adhesive separation from laminate or the vinyl.
I stay away from it

Is this issue only with 8508 or across their whole product line?

 

[Asuma01]

Our shop use's IJ35c and 8508 together all the time and I have never seen anything like that happen to our prints thank goodness.

 

[letterman7]

Is this issue only with 8508 or across their whole product line?

Thats what I want to know. Use IJ180C with the 8519 for years..

 

[Dennis422]

Is this issue only with 8508 or across their whole product line?

To be honest, when started working with vinyl few years back I heard a few bad things about 3M policies and never started using them.
Lately I have been hearing about adhesive separation a lot.
My only experience with 3M was at the wrapping class I took. 3M IJ180 was the only material that had "stripes" in adhesive at the random spots and I was told that was the issue and that panel would fail if it was installed as a real wrap (Training was not manufacturer specific so it can not be one manufacturer blaming other).

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

We have not seen any issues with the other laminates yet from 3M including 8510, 8518, 8520, 8548, or 8512.

 

[MikePro]

Arizona eh? yeah, you're screwed.
Carson Palmer aside...warranty terminology specifically calls-out that region as "limited warranty" which reduces your coverage to almost zero.
besides, 8508 is NOT cast. it is a calendared vinyl boasting 5yr+.

calendared vinyl shrinks, by nature. BUT that much shrinkage in such a short time could be "user-error" in the form of too much resistance on the laminate feed that causes the overlam to stretch prior to making contact with your printed vinyl (especially with heat-assisted laminators). ...or in the form of too much pinch-pressure, which could stretch the film during the lamination process itself.

I switched from 8519 (cast) to Arlon 3220 (cast) due to a HUGE price reduction from my supplier & haven't looked-back. not surprising they sold you on 8508, since their "intermediate-cast" terminology & ~50% price difference quickly makes you forget that it is STILL just calendared vinyl.
Not gonna knock it though, as I do use 8508/8509 as our "economy" overlaminate without any issues here ...since I only trust it for certain "cheap" projects that I will never have to worry about failures coming back to haunt me.

 

[CanuckSigns]

Arizona eh? yeah, you're screwed.
Carson Palmer aside...warranty terminology specifically calls-out that region as "limited warranty" which reduces your coverage to almost zero.
besides, 8508 is NOT cast. it is a calendared vinyl boasting 5yr+.

calendared vinyl shrinks, by nature. BUT that much shrinkage in such a short time could be "user-error" in the form of too much resistance on the laminate feed that causes the overlam to stretch prior to making contact with your printed vinyl (especially with heat-assisted laminators). ...or in the form of too much pinch-pressure, which could stretch the film during the lamination process itself.

I switched from 8519 (cast) to Arlon 3220 (cast) due to a HUGE price reduction from my supplier & haven't looked-back. not surprising they sold you on 8508, since their "intermediate-cast" terminology & ~50% price difference quickly makes you forget that it is STILL just calendared vinyl.
Not gonna knock it though, as I do use 8508/8509 as our "economy" overlaminate without any issues here ...since I only trust it for certain "cheap" projects that I will never have to worry about failures coming back to haunt me.

http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...GUC302D2B9O7224M1000000_assetId=1273682804555

This press release from 3M lists it as a cast film, but only a 3 year lifespan, which makes no sense to me!

 

[CanuckSigns]

This threw me off earlier. Since when is 8508 cast?? Product bulletin says it is, but all other finishes in that same series are calendared.

http://multimedia.3m.com/mws/media/1098953O/scotchcal-overlaminate-8508-8509-8510m-8512g.pdf

As far as I remember, it's in the same calendared mid-term category as Oraguard 210 gloss and Avery 2060 laminate.

Just to make matters more confusing, this is the sample card i have for 8508, which states 5 year outdoor life, and lists it for use with Calandered vinyl. when i peel the lam off the backer it feels very much like a calandered laminate, it has very little stretch to it, like Oracal 210.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

8508 is a Cast... That is confirmed by our 3M rep.

The problem here isn't normal shrinking ita the fact that the face stock seperate from its adhesive coat layer.

This is not user error as we have never before or after this film experienced this and have 100 times more material over the amount of 8508 we used. Also how can user error cause the permenatly mounted adhesive to delaminate from the face stock?

 

[GAC05]

What a mess, hope you get it worked out.
Looks like the "User Error" was trusting your 3M sales rep.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[player]

Start a website that calls out 3m on this and other issues. Link it to a FB page, and a YouTube video site.

 

[CanuckSigns]

8508 is a Cast... That is confirmed by our 3M rep.

The problem here isn't normal shrinking ita the fact that the face stock seperate from its adhesive coat layer.

This is not user error as we have never before or after this film experienced this and have 100 times more material over the amount of 8508 we used. Also how can user error cause the permenatly mounted adhesive to delaminate from the face stock?

I'm not doubting you, but what would the point be of making a 4 year cast film when there are already plenty of calendered films that can last that long no problem? The process of making a cast film is more expensive than calendered, so 3M is spending the $ to make a cast vinyl then selling it for calendered prices?!? Does not sound like 3M to me, they charge a premium for their products.

Like I said the sample I have looks and feels like a mid level calendered laminate, either they are lying to you or it's the most ridgid thick cast laminate I've ever seen.

Hopefully 3M steps up to the plate for you. It looks very much like a manufacturing defect to me.