A Comprehensive Beginner’s guide to Pricing Signage

[bob]

Some people just cant keep their negative opinions to themselves.

And others manage to manufacture negativity where none exists. Much like racism except that category has professional practitioners creating that condition for any situation which disturbs their delicate sensibilities and apparently making a living at it. You might have someone explain to you the difference between negativity and critique. Ask them to speak slowly and use words with few syllables.

Do you advocate a Pollyannaesque existence lurching through life pounding sunshine up as many orifices as possible?

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

And others manage to manufacture negativity where none exists. Much like racism except that category has professional practitioners creating that condition for any situation which disturbs their delicate sensibilities and apparently making a living at it. You might have someone explain to you the difference between negativity and critique. Ask them to speak slowly and use words with few syllables.

Do you advocate a Pollyannaesque existence lurching through life pounding sunshine up as many orifices as possible?

 

[ColorCrest]

After spending the past 4 years creating my own pricing software that we use inhouse

Your post is appreciated!

Do you mind saying what software you've used to develop your solution and who all use the software at your shop?

Thanks again for the post.

 

[Andy D]

I think one important thing that small businesses miss in the OH calc is depreciation. Its not a physical check that gets written every month so it gets ignored. Equipment has a finite life and everyday its value diminishes which is a real cost.
Always figure on the new cost of the machine, even if you bought it used. It depreciates daily so really should be added into your overall hourly rate whether it gets used or not and not as an expense for a certain job.

Personally I quote machine/print time separately per hour.. so a older printer might only be $30 per hour, over and above shop and material cost.. where as a print that
needs to be printed on the brand new high dollar printer might be $125 an hour... I typically don't up charge for plotter or lamination time.

Also, the % I add to my material is strictly as a insurance for likeliness of mishap/redo. and not considered as part of the profit margin:
For example: my mark up on max-metal isn't as high as my markup on printed vinyl.. if a 4' x 8' sheet of max-metal is miss-cut, it can be put to the side and used for a later project, if
a 4' x 8' sheet of vinyl is miss-printed, it is a total loss.

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Good to see how quickly someone trying to provide helpful advice is attacked by the angry mob.

Thanks for providing this guide for anybody who might not have an idea of where to start when it comes to pricing. Could be very useful for some people.

 

[Gino]

Where in the world do you see an angry mob ?? I see only one poster who gave him a hard time..... and frankly, quite rightly so.

This thread is hardly about a pricing guide or quoting 101 by any means. It gives about 1/10th of what you need to quote or price signs. He starts you out and then lets a novice completely dangling. Those of us, who have been around the block once or twice are questioning what's going on. Some sugar coat it, while other are a bit more direct, but the end results are the same. This basically doesn't help anyone, much less give a guide to pricing as the title says....
Comprehensive Beginner’s guide to Pricing Signage.

Fred, the EX-owner here, has a complete setup all spelled out and explain=s the whole kit and kaboodle in a much much shorter version and far more accurate and understandable. Heck, I bet even the toadster won't pull a head muscle reading Fred's post.

This kinda stuff is always coming up, but this one is almost useless. Before partnering with something so bad.... why don't YOU look around and see what's going on ??

 

[DerbyCitySignGuy]

Where in the world do you see an angry mob ?? I see only one poster who gave him a hard time..... and frankly, quite rightly so.

This thread is hardly about a pricing guide or quoting 101 by any means. It gives about 1/10th of what you need to quote or price signs. He starts you out and then lets a novice completely dangling. Those of us, who have been around the block once or twice are questioning what's going on. Some sugar coat it, while other are a bit more direct, but the end results are the same. This basically doesn't help anyone, much less give a guide to pricing as the title says....
Comprehensive Beginner’s guide to Pricing Signage.

Fred, the EX-owner here, has a complete setup all spelled out and explain=s the whole kit and kaboodle in a much much shorter version and far more accurate and understandable. Heck, I bet even the toadster won't pull a head muscle reading Fred's post.

This kinda stuff is always coming up, but this one is almost useless. Before partnering with something so bad.... why don't YOU look around and see what's going on ??

Then why don't you just move on? If it doesn't help you and doesn't apply to you, why are you even here making a stink? What exactly are you accomplishing by tearing down other people who are trying to help? Get a hobby.

 

[Gino]

Then why don't you just move on? If it doesn't help you and doesn't apply to you, why are you even here making a stink? What exactly are you accomplishing by tearing down other people who are trying to help? Get a hobby.

You just don't understand normal conversation, dialog or discussion. First of all, while this thread might give some people an inkling of what to look for in a few sparse places in pricing, quoting, bidding.... whatever, it's hardly what the title suggests. I hardly need you to tell me to move on. You have absolutely nothing to ever contribute anywhere on this forum. Sure, you give a few thumbs up and some thumbs down and you tell me and some of the others to hit the pike all the time, but you are not in charge of me or this forum..... or are you ?? Your constant ruining of threads by going after me or whomever and pretending to be the site police does no one any good, especially the OP in all of your railroaded threads.

Besides, I didn't make a stink. I asked some direct questions which the OP halfway addressed, but not really. He indicated you'll hafta find all the other particulars out on your own. Well, that's the hard part and he left that out. I'm not condemning him by asking why or how he forget to put the important parts into the equation. However, your input does nothing to help anyone....... except your own little ego.

Get a hobby....... Ha, you'll never be part of a group. You just wanna create problems and boss people around. With your Napoleonic Complex..... I'm picturing you to be about 5'2", stubborn as all get out and balding with a kinda chubby belly. Get a life.​

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

You guys are over thinking how the OP's post is helping/hurting people... I bet 99% of people didn't make it halfway down his post and thought to themselves.. WTF am I doing??

 

[ColorCrest]

Fred, the EX-owner here, has a complete setup all spelled out and explain=s the whole kit and kaboodle in a much much shorter version and far more accurate and understandable.

Can you provide a link to this or maybe a post title I can use to search?

 

[Gino]

Can you provide a link to this or maybe a post title I can use to search?

I think you'd be better off PMing Fred and asking him to post it up again. I don't remember the thread it was in, as it wasn't by Fred himself, but he posted into it somewhat later. It is one of the most useful posts on this forum. Everyone could learn by it.

 

[Johnny Best]

Good to see how quickly someone trying to provide helpful advice is attacked by the angry mob.

Out of #31 posts only 11 were not pertaining to subject (#4 were between Derby and Gino and about #4 with bob and Texas) the other was just jibber jabber. Four or five people do not make a mob.
Lost me on algorithms.

 

[equippaint]

Personally I quote machine/print time separately per hour.. so a older printer might only be $30 per hour, over and above shop and material cost.. where as a print that
needs to be printed on the brand new high dollar printer might be $125 an hour... I typically don't up charge for plotter or lamination time.

The problem with only charging for the machine when it is being used is that when it is not being used, you are paying for it with your profit. Old or new shouldn't matter. Unless you plan on running and growing your business on used machines forever, you should always try to account for their cost as if you purchased them new, even if you didnt.

 

[jtinker]

What it means is that you put forth an excruciatingly detailed description of things that anyone with a couple of functioning brain cells already knows. Rather like an exposition about how to determine which way is up.

If you manage re-write it leave out all of the pronouns. At least that way if won't be quite as pedantic.

k

 

[Creighton]

That’s my 2 cents, hope it was helpful.

JTinker - appreciated, if for no other reason than reminding newbs that there are many pieces to bidding projects, and you want to have your head screwed on straight when thinking about how you're going to run the business model, vs just slinging signs.

With some past in the apparel industry, there is a much lower barrier to entry for basic product, resulting in many more garage shops in what I seem to recall is a bigger industry, and most of those garage shops don't make it, especially around plastisol screen print. The interesting dynamic there is the easy entry allows the wide landscape of mom and pops to easily get into a race to the bottom, without thinking about their cost models and futures. When you enter that market, you really have to have an iron will of commitment to whatever business model you've come up with, otherwise the deluge of low bids and friend of a friend relationships everywhere can make your head spin.

 

[Andy D]

The problem with only charging for the machine when it is being used is that when it is not being used, you are paying for it with your profit. Old or new shouldn't matter. Unless you plan on running and growing your business on used machines forever, you should always try to account for their cost as if you purchased them new, even if you didnt.

I understand what you're saying.. but consider this:
1. By charging by the hour for products run on the piece of equipment, you figure out real quick if it's paying for it self or not.
2. If you add the payments into your hourly rate, you are under charging for products that require a high dollar piece of equipment
and over charging people that just need, for example, plotted vinyl.

Would you charge the same hourly rate to install a sign 100' up in the air, using a $150,000 crane truck, as installing one 15' up in the air, using
a $20,000 bucket truck?

 

[equippaint]

I understand what you're saying.. but consider this:
1. By charging by the hour for products run on the piece of equipment, you figure out real quick if it's paying for it self or not.
2. If you add the payments into your hourly rate, you are under charging for products that require a high dollar piece of equipment
and over charging people that just need, for example, plotted vinyl.

Would you charge the same hourly rate to install a sign 100' up in the air, using a $150,000 crane truck, as installing one 15' up in the air, using
a $20,000 bucket truck?

I agree with what youre saying and no you wouldnt charge the same, but $150k specialized equipment is a bit out of the realm of a beginners guide to pricing. If you wanted to break it out it is best to compartmentalize. The installation dept overhead would cover the truck depreciation, then youd add a desired ROI for your capital investment and then profit based on billable hours which would account for the difference in a ladder vs a crane.
Thats also how you see what makes money and what doesnt.
IMO, if youre not factoring in your payments to each thing you do then you are undercharging.
Im sure you will agree but a company with $500k in equipment shouldnt be competitve in one off cut vinyl with someone that has $5k invested. Mostly due to overhead differences. With a large quantity the advantage would probably flip.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

I agree with what youre saying and no you wouldnt charge the same, but $150k specialized equipment is a bit out of the realm of a beginners guide to pricing. If you wanted to break it out it is best to compartmentalize. The installation dept overhead would cover the truck depreciation, then youd add a desired ROI for your capital investment and then profit based on billable hours which would account for the difference in a ladder vs a crane.
Thats also how you see what makes money and what doesnt.
IMO, if youre not factoring in your payments to each thing you do then you are undercharging.
Im sure you will agree but a company with $500k in equipment shouldnt be competitve in one off cut vinyl with someone that has $5k invested. Mostly due to overhead differences. With a large quantity the advantage would probably flip.

Some of the people who post here that may have 500k in equipment get their panties in a bunch when a small shop underbids them on that tiny tiny order.

 

[Andy D]

Some of the people who post here that may have 500k in equipment get their panties in a bunch when a small shop underbids them on that tiny tiny order.

I can't speak for everyone, but I doubt many large sign companies concern theirselves with customers that call around for the best prices on small projects.
Most established sign companies have clients, that accept reasonable prices, without complaint, for the piece of mind of quality workmanship and the knowledge that their deadline will be met.

 

[ColorCrest]

The OP says he created his own software but I didn't notice where he specifically accounted for equipment.

Good sign pricing software can show a given machine as the first layer of a particular product's makeup but usually hidden from initial view is the equipment's charge out rates of costs, pricing, capacity, supply consumption, etc.

This data is critical to both beginners and experts but a beginner might run this formula before much else...

Equipment Hourly Rate = EquipCost / (EquipLifeInYears * WorkingDaysPerYear * WorkHrsPerDay)