A Yellow Pages question - sort of

[Hero Signs]

Wow you guys are beat up bad on advertising. What I did not see was data. I work in internet advertising and buying a sign company next week.

Yellowpages.com is a top 35 most used website in the US. Craigs List is top 20 website. Check out Comscore's rankings, they are the Neilson of the internet.

I would ask your reps for traffic reports on the "Heading" you are listed, the best performer and the avg of all advertisers.

For SEO, many have dogass websites and get sold on SEO BS packages out there from things like Outranked and other blah companies.. If you advertising budget is $300 per month YP.com is great, pay someone for link building if you cannot do it yourself. For $200 you can buy a subscription at Trillion and get much of the keyword research you would need for your SEM campaign. Or you can shoot from the hip and trial and error.

It is crazy how different trends appear across different search engines for different industries.

Most YP people are older book salesmen and not up on the web marketing.

Heck I had yellowbook employees talk to me about advertising last week and I got a bunch of I do not knows. I was unimpressed with there traffic but they are not a top 50 website.

Top 3 listings in order Yp.com, Yelp.com (largest peer review site) Superpages.com all of which are top 40 sites.

Want to make an impression at a lower cost I would start on Bing for Pay per click. Here is the reason why: easier to make an impact less advertisers. Lower cost to advertise.

Talk to Esigns I doubt they spent $300 per month on their website to get it highly ranked. Much more.

Look at the statistical data before making an assumption. Have a sales rep show you the stats.

Here is a good thing to look at to see if you need a basic advertising program such as YP.com. google your company name, if you do not dominate 2-3 pages of search results you NEED IT or some other 100+ website publishing service.

Number 1 Mistake I see with business I consult is that they do not keep in touch with their clients and they do not attend networking functions.


I will leave you with my favorite advertising quote, "The man who stops advertising to save money is like the man who stops the clock to save time. "

Oh one more homework, who said the quote? No google cheating!

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[Colin]

I would ask your reps for traffic reports on the "Heading" you are listed, the best performer and the avg of all advertisers.

How does one know whether the "numbers" that they show you are true and correct?

 

[CheapVehicleWrap]

They are ALL scams.

 

[Techman]

I think anything to do with YP ads or YP websites is pure bullscatology. Any money spent there is wasted.

Get a real webmaster using a real website avoiding some template website that gets pure non qualified responses.

I have never been able to verify all those glowing reports of high usage etc.. In fact I would wager there is not one on this entire board that could statistically prove the numbers for themselves.

In all my 30+ years of operating a business and using YP ads,, and in all the years of those who I interact with who used YP ads. Not one has ever been able to duplicate the numbers spouted.

Yes the YP book may be used consulted. Yes there may be polls that show some kind of usage. But, that usage is not turning into cold hard cash. What counts is a advertising expense turning into cash.

Any time this topic arises there are very few who give a glowing testimony. 10 post nays and 1 post yay. That is very telling in my opinion.

I have personally tested every combination of color, size, placement. I have been out of the book or in the book. My peers have all done the same. In the past 10 years we have never ever had the pleasure of getting the response spouted by those who promote that book.

I was out of the book for 3 years. Then back in and now I am winding down my last great experiment of YP usage via the pay per call and distinctive ring system. I can prove my statements with actual numbers. I am here to tell every one that out of the last 46 calls.. NONE has turned into a sale. No, Not one. In fact not even one turned into a first appointment. What is the value in that? I finally got the last caller to fess up he was calling for a competitor thus using up my budget.

Over time the YP reps attempted to say my ad was not big enough, colorful enough. placed right, not white, or not yellow, or every other excuse in right off the script. Well now how does that account for the doubling of my business for the 2 years I was LEFT OUT of the book.

Another fantasy. Pay per clicks..

I just returned from a marketing seminar and was a little surprised to see that is going on with pay per clicks. One module in a standing room only crowd mentioned one trick used against their competitors. They would search out pay per click key words only to find their competition already had them then promptly click them 5 times a day all the time. What a scam.

 

[WestcoastSigns]

I haven't used Yellow pages in years. Always Google. You don't have to do adwords.

Make sure you sign up for a local listing on Google so the locals can find you. Also be sure to have what you do on your website with lots of text as well as in the blue bar at the top of the page. Include you city, state there too.

I have friends who have HVAC business and stopped paying $60K a year for yellow pages ads. Just made sure they could be found organically for lots of terms in Google. They have more business than they know what to do with.

 

[Colin]

More good replies; thanks.

What about FaceBook ads? Where do they get posted/placed; all over the world? Just your area? Just your friends?

 

[WestcoastSigns]

Facebook is pay per click. Not sure if it would be good for sign biz. You can target ads to location and peoples interests, age and marital status. Not sure if someone would have signage as an interest.

It's good for someone who has a golf shop and is trying to target someone who lives in their area, male between 35 to 50 and likes golf. You can get pretty specific but again, not sure if signage would be good. Don't think you could target on if they run a business. You could target someone who has an interest in business but its too broad.

 

[FireSprint.com]

Don't get yellowpages.com and several other type website confused with your local phone book. The local phone book is dying (completely worthless in some areas) and the "online yellow pages" are dying even faster... Google, Bing & Facebook are important to focus on, not to mention your own website....with a simple to understand .com tld.

Make sure you have your Google places page up to date and a clean, simple website with your address at the bottom of EVERY page.

As for Facebook, it works great, but you have to consider your target. Don't just target people in your area, but target specifics. You have to get creative with this. For example, if you find yourself doing alot of wayfinding signs for hostpitals, plug in the name of the hospitals in your area when it asks you about where they work. You could do this if you want to do real estate signs, you could plug in Re/max, or whatever. You could also target job types as keywords - lawn care, maintenance, etc will help you target as well.

 

[Colin]

I really appreciate the replies, but I'm still kinda torn on this. I've asked a number of people if they use the online YP, and some say yes, and some say no.

It's kinda like ya gotta be in both the book and online at this point in time, with the book diminishing each year that ticks by.

 

[FireSprint.com]

You absolutely NEED to be online. Google, Bing & Maybe Facebook. If you have a tight budget, spend 100% on Google!

Good luck!

 

[Dan Antonelli]

Don't waste your money Colin. Put the same budget on Adwords, if you must (if your current site doesn't rank organically). LEast if you do that, the people clicking are actually interested in your services.

As for Yellow Pages print, we pulled ALL of our clients out and redirected a small portion of what they used to spend on print - and put online, with staggering results.

Be wary of who you take advice from - namely - ad salespersons, and especially those from YP. What does a YP salesperson tell you to do when you tell him your current ad doesnt work? "Oh, you need a bigger ad then'. Taking strategy from sales people is a common mistake most small businesses make. What are they gonna tell you when their livelihood is based on commission? 'Oh dont bother, no one reads the YP or goes to YP online either?' Oh course not.

 

[Colin]

Be wary of who you take advice from - namely - ad salespersons, and especially those from YP. What does a YP salesperson tell you to do when you tell him your current ad doesnt work? "Oh, you need a bigger ad then'. Taking strategy from sales people is a common mistake most small businesses make. What are they gonna tell you when their livelihood is based on commission? 'Oh dont bother, no one reads the YP or goes to YP online either?' Oh course not.

Oh, yes, I'm fully aware of that, which is why I'm asking here. The moment they start claiming numbers of hits and whatnot, my BS meter goes berserk.

Thanks Dan.

 

[Hero Signs]

How does one know whether the "numbers" that they show you are true and correct?

There will be a list that shows headings per each geographic area, it will be produced and resemble a spreadsheet or Excel doc but.

Comscore is the Neilson ratings of the internet. Check them out.

Everything on the internet is traceable it is easy peasy to validate Unique Visitors and Impressions.

Impressions is how many times your Ad was displayed, this could include the same person searching 1,000 times.

Unique Visitors is a new IP address searching, entering a website. These are the numbers you should really care about.

 

[Hero Signs]

More good replies; thanks.

What about FaceBook ads? Where do they get posted/placed; all over the world? Just your area? Just your friends?

Facebook gets organic search results, when the searcher is looking for your business name, and can trigger an emotional buy from a recommendation. It is free, do it. You can also run easy to track promotions on FB.
FB Ad campaigns are better suited for a broad demographic (emotional buys and major distribution services and products)not the sign industry.

You absolutely NEED to be online. Google, Bing & Maybe Facebook. If you have a tight budget, spend 100% on Google!

Good luck!

100% of Google Ads, you Sir are ignoring 178million people that use Yahoo per month and 173million that use Bing per month. Can you really ignore them? Google receives 182 million per month.

Who eles has ideas I can shoot holes in? I can do this all day.

 

[FireSprint.com]

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but Google get's the bulk of the search traffic any way you slice it. You have to combine Yahoo and Bing to even compare them to Google.

And I'm not saying you should ignore those search engines, just focus on Google if you have a small budget, or need to spend time doing something else like run a sign shop. When you get good at Google, move on to Yahoo and/or Bing.

There are thousands of websites out there that you can promote on and it's overwhelming! My suggestion would be focus on the big gun first, then move on to the other thousand search engines that fight for a combined 35%.

 

[Hero Signs]

Not sure where you are getting your information from, but Google get's the bulk of the search traffic any way you slice it. You have to combine Yahoo and Bing to even compare them to Google.

And I'm not saying you should ignore those search engines, just focus on Google if you have a small budget, or need to spend time doing something else like run a sign shop. When you get good at Google, move on to Yahoo and/or Bing.


There are thousands of websites out there that you can promote on and it's overwhelming! My suggestion would be focus on the big gun first, then move on to the other thousand search engines that fight for a combined 35%.

Unique Searchers is my 1st focus. Next strong focus is evaluating conversion rates per each media outlet.
Total General Search traffic is not strong enough to develop a marketing plan based on that 1 piece of information. Google searches far surpasses all others SE's & so does YouTube. But is this all relevant to your business?


Small budget 1st and always build your links, on directories and other websites. Be a Dot on the map when searched locally. 1 out of 23 is hella better than 1 out of 0 possibilities to be seen. If you focus on Adwords prior to this step, you are buying shoes with out shoe laces each month because you keep loosing shoes when you run because you do not have shoe laces.

If you do not have time to do your own advertising, outsource. When I need 100 campaign signs, I am not making them myself I will have a whole sale company produce them for that is not the main focus of my sign shop.


Conservative look at Pay Per Click: $2.20 per click for 100 clicks per month on Google for "Sign Company" or "Banners" Compared to $1.75 on Bing. Why would you spend all your $ on 1 search box when you only pay per click?

Do you care where your clients come from? Does it matter if they walk, drive or swim to your business? No, you want them Signing contracts and paying you for services provided.

I am a tech geek from the start, ATM and VoIP platforms is my background. Do not get wrapped up in what is the best program or most used service. This will always lead to being a 2nd class corporation. Focus on desired outcome and then implement your plan and constantly refine. I have many clients who have conversion rates higher on Bing networks ( and it may alternates per month) Do I make any more money by promoting 1 service over another? No, I just told yall implement the plan based on desired outcome, vendor neutrality is the key and ONLY way.

Subscription based advertising is different. Now you are evaluating the traffic & distribution demographics. Still you need to evaluate Cost/Reach(distribution)= cost per impression Then Cost/Conversions = ROI Cost/Clients= Cost per Customer Acquisition. You can keep drilling down more and more and many other factors come into play with conversion rates.

From May:

http://www.comscore.com/Press_Event...Ranks_Top_50_U.S._Web_Properties_for_May_2011

Current: http://www.comscore.com/Press_Event...Top_50_U.S._Web_Properties_for_September_2011

The difference in these reports and Search Box traffic you posted is searcher interaction. Yes you will say, but that is not pure search. My reply is I want a woman to kiss me not just look at me, do the same for your business.

Here is my Nail in the Coffin for Fire Sprint Printings Argument

Fire Sprint's web presence: https://www.google.com/#q=fire+spri....,cf.osb&fp=6a01c1aab557d443&biw=1280&bih=707

http://www.bing.com/search?q=wholesale+sign+company+Omaha,+NE+68127&go=&qs=n&sk=&form=QBRE

https://www.google.com/#q=sign+comp....,cf.osb&fp=6a01c1aab557d443&biw=1280&bih=707

https://www.google.com/#hl=en&cp=14...osb&fp=6a01c1aab557d443&biw=1280&bih=707&bs=1 Found you once here.

One of my clients: https://www.google.com/#sclient=psy....,cf.osb&fp=6a01c1aab557d443&biw=1280&bih=707

Yes you are wholesale, but you are not easy to find even with your key words and zip code.
If you look hard enough I just gave all of yall the magic formula 101 course for your business.

 

[FireSprint.com]

I see, you work for/with yp.com - that's why you're all up in arms.

Good points. Good luck Colin, as you can see, there's plenty of advice out there.

 

[Colin]

I see, you work for/with yp.com - that's why you're all up in arms.

That's "Chief" Inspector Clouseau.

 

[TheSnowman]

I tried to cancel something for yellow pages last year, but it went through anyway...then this year, I didn't do anything with the proofs they sent to me...so I assumed that it wouldn't renew since no one really contacted me. In the fine print somewhere, it apparently said it. So, it went up in price, and auto renewed itself, and will continue to until I call in early enough and tell them to cancel it.

I told them to cancel it for next year, and he said I had to call some other number, get an approval number...I did it, blah blah blah...here we are, I never got a confirmation etc. It's robbery at this point if you ask me since I've told them two years in a row that I didn't want it. Stuff that renews unless it cancels on THEIR TERMS drives me NUTS.

 

[Techman]

Do not pay the bill. When they call for the money tell them to sue you for it.
They cannot take the chances that their autorenewal (negative marketing) will be overturned as illegal.

Those auto renewals with the onerous stop action procedures are losing ground,