Custom_Grafx
New Member
I didn't realise it was such a touchy topic...
Still, I wouldn't do polyester on acrylic...
Still, I wouldn't do polyester on acrylic...
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Acrylic outgassing... How long?
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Techman
New Member
I will come right behind that application and lay vinyl like it was painted on. Ive done it several times just to test it out for myself.
We had one test where another guy laid down a patch that gave bubbbles a while later. He swore his life about outgassing. I applied some vinyl right there and it was fine. He tried again and got more blisters.
There are a few techniques that all must be used to avoid bubbles. Miss any one of them and there will be bubbles on those really smooth surfaces. Slick smooth hard surfaces are the hardest.
visual800
Active Member
I posted this another sign board and personally I have never had anything outgas on me. Since this "outgassing epidemic" has been mentioned, they are now saying everyhting is outgassing! Toilet paper, computer hard drives and paper plates will actually lift food off of them if used to soon.
Ive used acrylic, pvc, lexan i have NEVER seen this outgassing occur. Maybe its the climate or the region. I know one thing I have a prob is is getting shocked by ripping the plastic film off these faces!
Ive used acrylic, pvc, lexan i have NEVER seen this outgassing occur. Maybe its the climate or the region. I know one thing I have a prob is is getting shocked by ripping the plastic film off these faces!
natedawg9640
New Member
I'm fairly certain it was a polycarb face. we had thought it was install error at first, so we went and popped the large bubbles and waited for the vinyl to clear out... bubbles came back in full force so a few weeks later we did the same thing. Happened the same way again. it was gassing so fast that the vinyl couldn't breathe it through. some of these bubbles were the size of silver dollars. Only after the 3rd round of popping did we get on the horn to 3M and come to find out that indeed, controltac adhesive cannot be used on polycarbonate. I'm not positive if that applies to acrylic as well...
Bill Modzel
New Member
Years ago we were setting up for a local trade show. I built a small turntable with a white and a clear sheet of acrylic notched in the center to they slid together, (looked like an "X" when viewed from the top). We're a screen shop and do mostly decal work. Anyway, I applied an assortment of our decals to both sided of both sheets for the display and it looked great.
A year later, I pulled it out of the box to use again and every decal, whether mylar or white or clear vinyl was bubbled on both sides of the white acrylic and not one bubble on the clear. I've never had it happen again but it CAN happen.
A year later, I pulled it out of the box to use again and every decal, whether mylar or white or clear vinyl was bubbled on both sides of the white acrylic and not one bubble on the clear. I've never had it happen again but it CAN happen.
As I have shared, I have first hand experience with bubbles showing up a day after having successfully applied vinyl with no bubbles on acrylic. I've been laying down vinyl for over 15 years. I've been to tradeshows, 3M training and several vendor workshops. If there is a super secret way of installing vinyl that the circumvents the problem that I encountered, then I'd love to hear about it. If what I experienced is not "outgassing", I would be equally interested to know what caused the bubbles to appear.
Clearly there are lots of variables(acrylic manufacturers, age of acrylic, type of protector sheet, geographic location, humidity, temperature, etc.) that could be coming into play. I think a blanket statement that outgassing does not exist is absolutely incorrect.
Techman
New Member
Outgassing of the plastic sheet is a myth.
Bubbles are caused by something other than some mysterious gas emanating from the plastic sheet. If those panels were emitting some strange gas the workers who make it or handle it would be androids.
Reaction from the adhesive? maybe. Reaction from some home made weasel **** possible. Reaction between the squeegee and improper install? most likely.
I've applied vinyl myself only to have pickle skin. I tried the old stab the plastic with a needle technique and found that didn't work either. Remove that mess and reapply with a proper sharpened squeegee and the right movements and had none.
Plastic sheeting is made from a molecular reaction. It is heated and rolled into shape and then lined with more plastic. It is either cast or calendared just like vinyl.
It is made by taking a monomer and adding a catalyst. That causes a molecular reaction where the monomers turn into a polymer. The catalyst leaves in the same amount that went in. The plastic comes out in the same amount that went in. Than means there is nothing consumed or escapes as gas. It just binds in a molecular reaction.
Terremoto
New Member
There tends to be a lot of misinformation regarding the "outgassing phenomena" especially in respect to polycarbonate substrates.
The following link is 3M's index to it's PDF archive of product and information bulletins:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...hics/Products/TechnicalInformation/Bulletins/
(Be darned if I could figure out how to link directly to the PDF in question)
Anyhow..., scroll down to page 4 of the 5 page PDF that pops up and click the "5.1 substrate selection, prep and application techniques" link. Page 11 of the IB5.1 bulletin describes the outgassing phenomena.
The phenomena is described in many of their other Information Bulletins so it would appear that 3M is aware of the phenomena.
The phenomena is not so much outgassing of volatile hydrocarbons or other ominous chemicals but more a problem of the "hygroscopic" nature of polycarbonate. In other words polycarbonate absorbs moisture. I'm guessing it's more of a moisture problem than anything.
RTape has an information page on the phenomena as well:
http://www.rtape.com/resources/tips/how-to-prevent-bubbles
Being that the outgassing phenomena is likely more of moisture issue than anything probably explains why some have witnessed the problem and others have not.
I have personally witnessed the issue and seen severe pickle skin show up on perfectly applied vinyl. The path of least resistance is to blame the installer - after all, he's usually one of the lower paid guys around the shop.
Just my 2 cents
The following link is 3M's index to it's PDF archive of product and information bulletins:
http://solutions.3m.com/wps/portal/...hics/Products/TechnicalInformation/Bulletins/
(Be darned if I could figure out how to link directly to the PDF in question)
Anyhow..., scroll down to page 4 of the 5 page PDF that pops up and click the "5.1 substrate selection, prep and application techniques" link. Page 11 of the IB5.1 bulletin describes the outgassing phenomena.
The phenomena is described in many of their other Information Bulletins so it would appear that 3M is aware of the phenomena.
The phenomena is not so much outgassing of volatile hydrocarbons or other ominous chemicals but more a problem of the "hygroscopic" nature of polycarbonate. In other words polycarbonate absorbs moisture. I'm guessing it's more of a moisture problem than anything.
RTape has an information page on the phenomena as well:
http://www.rtape.com/resources/tips/how-to-prevent-bubbles
Being that the outgassing phenomena is likely more of moisture issue than anything probably explains why some have witnessed the problem and others have not.
I have personally witnessed the issue and seen severe pickle skin show up on perfectly applied vinyl. The path of least resistance is to blame the installer - after all, he's usually one of the lower paid guys around the shop.
Just my 2 cents
signmeup
New Member
Moisture content in plastic is a fact. I vac formed a lot of parts over the years and if you have moisture in your plastic it will bubble as it's heated. Lexan is bad for moisture as is styrene. ABS is pretty inert. Allowing time for sheets "dry" with the protective sheet removed is just as likely to allow more moisture to be absorbed from the air as it is to dry it though. You need to purposely dry the sheets if you have a moisture problem.
Terremoto
New Member
The only problem there is the recommended procedure is to pop it in a recirculating oven at 250 degrees F for a few to several hours. Not really an option for most sign shops.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
For those of you experiencing outgassing.... I have a question for you.
As tech said.....
The reason for this last question is pure and simple. Anyone getting bubbles never got the air out to begin with. No matter how flat and smooth it appears..... as the vinyl constricts or shrinks which it does start doing immediately.... it will start producing bubbles at will within an hour and continue until heat hits it.
Why do you think you have to post-heat wrap media. One needs to remove the air with strong firm movements towards the edge of the vinyl. Once the vinyl has been laid down with good force, it will probably never lift without any outside influence.
Outgassing is generally not in any of the products we use in the sign industry. It's a term the companies have come up with to make you feel good about yourself. Besides, the amount of any GAS escaping or migrating would be so negligible, it's wouldn't create all these bubbles you all keep talking about. It's a gas, not something that can create bubbles. Outgassing is the same thing if you open a can of soda..... it outgasses, but it's an entirely different form of outgassing. You all are talking of GAS outgassing. Paints outgas while drying, carpeting outgasses and just about everything does, but our PVC's had that process removed while being made.
Do you realize how harmful those escaping solvents would be to breath if we were all cooped up with them so much ?? The entire sign industry would be sick all of the time. There is more problematic toxins in your drinking water than in the PVC's we use.
Our PVC products would have to catch fire or melt down to be of any concern..... and in great quantities. The last of the problem PVC's was stopped in the 1970's and has been entirely safe for use in our field.
Get this foolish notion out of your head that your inability to put a simple piece of vinyl down without bubbles is some magical gas.
Did you know that there are little people that live in your walls all day long and at night when you go to bed.... they come out and move things around and steal things....... then the next day you think you've misplaced your keys or threw away $15 you can't find. Yeah, right. Always blame something or somebody else before looking hard in the mirror.
As tech said.....
- Do you have a sharp and straight squeegee ??
- Are you strongly and firmly squeegeeing your vinyl down ??
- Whether you flood the area with a solution or do it dry.... do you get all liquids out or all air out ??
The reason for this last question is pure and simple. Anyone getting bubbles never got the air out to begin with. No matter how flat and smooth it appears..... as the vinyl constricts or shrinks which it does start doing immediately.... it will start producing bubbles at will within an hour and continue until heat hits it.
Why do you think you have to post-heat wrap media. One needs to remove the air with strong firm movements towards the edge of the vinyl. Once the vinyl has been laid down with good force, it will probably never lift without any outside influence.
Outgassing is generally not in any of the products we use in the sign industry. It's a term the companies have come up with to make you feel good about yourself. Besides, the amount of any GAS escaping or migrating would be so negligible, it's wouldn't create all these bubbles you all keep talking about. It's a gas, not something that can create bubbles. Outgassing is the same thing if you open a can of soda..... it outgasses, but it's an entirely different form of outgassing. You all are talking of GAS outgassing. Paints outgas while drying, carpeting outgasses and just about everything does, but our PVC's had that process removed while being made.
Do you realize how harmful those escaping solvents would be to breath if we were all cooped up with them so much ?? The entire sign industry would be sick all of the time. There is more problematic toxins in your drinking water than in the PVC's we use.
Our PVC products would have to catch fire or melt down to be of any concern..... and in great quantities. The last of the problem PVC's was stopped in the 1970's and has been entirely safe for use in our field.
Get this foolish notion out of your head that your inability to put a simple piece of vinyl down without bubbles is some magical gas.
Did you know that there are little people that live in your walls all day long and at night when you go to bed.... they come out and move things around and steal things....... then the next day you think you've misplaced your keys or threw away $15 you can't find. Yeah, right. Always blame something or somebody else before looking hard in the mirror.
Terremoto
New Member
I've been laying down vinyl for a lot longer than I care to remember and have no trouble applying vinyl bubble free using a dry application. I can assure you that pickle skinned vinyl on polycarbonate is a VERY REAL phenomena whether you care to believe it or not.
Did you not read my previous post to this thread with the links to 3M and RTape? Quite frankly I would trust their opinion over yours!
Custom_Grafx
New Member
I have on numerous times seen polyester films bubble on acrylic. Lay it by hand, laminator or on the beach at sunset, you can get bubbles with chromes...
signmeup
New Member
I had a friend who devised a method of drying plastic sheet by standing them on edge with a 1" space between them and blowing a construction heaters' output through them. Did the trick.
signmeup
New Member
No one is saying you can't. I dispute that the cause is "gas" trapped in the sheet. Moisture sure... if it's heated sufficiently it will produce vapor and this vapor can displace the vinyl. It will even displace the surface of the plastic if heated to the "plastic" state. (OK, technically water vapor is a gas) Note that heat is required to see this effect.
Custom_Grafx
New Member
I can live with that explanation.
GAC05
Quit buggin' me
Rocket scientists seem to believe in the mystical magical effect:
http://outgassing.nasa.gov/
Acrylic looks like it is at the upper edge of the % required to meet the classification of a low outgassing material.
"One must be aware that these data have been collected over a period of 25 years. It is likely that some materials have changed over this time span. The data can be used as a guide in selecting (with a fair degree of confidence) low-outgassing materials for space flight applications."
They test in a vacuum applying heat so your mileage may vary.
wayne k
guam usa
http://outgassing.nasa.gov/
Acrylic looks like it is at the upper edge of the % required to meet the classification of a low outgassing material.
"One must be aware that these data have been collected over a period of 25 years. It is likely that some materials have changed over this time span. The data can be used as a guide in selecting (with a fair degree of confidence) low-outgassing materials for space flight applications."
They test in a vacuum applying heat so your mileage may vary.
wayne k
guam usa
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Gino
Premium Subscriber
I wasn't talking to any one in particular but you.... as in general subject.
Dry.... wet.... it can be done with no bubbles and the first time around. I said, if you or ANYONE is getting these bubbles, you are probalby the problem, not this magical idea of outgassing.
Oh yeah.... and as I said..... just because it's written on 3M's, RTape or anyone else's website, doesn't mean it's true. Remember when A V E R Y was telling the entire world their vinyl problems were application error and they weren't ?? Just because THEY say it...... doesn't make it an absolute truth. Just someone trying to cover someone else's mistakes.
I never asked you to believe me. You keep telling your customers that there is a magical gas being emitted from your substrate and I'm sure that makes it all quite honky-dory.
No. whatever or however you wanna put this stuff down is on you guys, but when others are having problems, don't feed the hogwash that fairies and magical gas and mist pop out of the plastic and can cause PICKLING... whatever that is. It's about 99.9% someone didn't get all the air out from under their vinyl properly and the air was evenly distributed and created bubbles.
Don't you guys ever think that if these very gasses migrating to the surface were indeed coming to the surface and being trapped by the vinyl, they would give off a lot of possible toxins when popped ?? Don't you think these gasses would interfere with the adhesives on the other side of the vinyl and make it fail evenly and completely ?? Don't you think for a moment the gasses would take the path of least resistence and go out the back ??..... or the edges ??
The moisture I can understand, but don't think that's causing the problem because we generally flood these substrates, float the vinyl on and then squeegee the daylights out of it and never a bubble.... or almost never. However, we can easily work the bubble over to the edge and then completely out.
We have 12 faces to do tomorrow and I'll let you know how much outgassing we get when were done. The substrate is still covered in protective mask. Some are Leaxn and some are modified acrylic. Ill let you know what happens.
We're probably gonna do these dry.