All this talk all the time about price... price... price.............

[Gino]

The other day or so, someone was asking about pricing things. Actually, this happens a few times an hour lately.

Several members were discussing how to go about it. There were several approaches, but the bottom line was, they all had formulas.

They all had formulas. What does that really mean to any of you ??

Ever wonder why no matter how much you try..... if YOU go out pricing things for your printer, your vinyl, paint, aluminum, PVC, compressors, trucks, cranes and so forth..... you always wanna know which is the best deal ?? All the distributors, manufacturers, salespeople and whatnot.... they all have their sh!t together for the most part and you can't make your mind up because the danged-gone prices are so closely matched. So you figure, you'll base your decision on which gives the best yield, or fastest or most precise end pieces and then you start getting into the nitty-gritty and you slowly see small if not minute differences.

So, if a roll of vinyl... is a roll of vinyl and we're comparing apples to apples, it comes down to preference if the two vinyls act completely the same.



So, why does an aluminum composite sign in one shop vary so greatly to an aluminum composite sign in another shop ??

Sure, Benny hand paints his. Suzy does die-cut vinyl, while Tom does digital printing on a solvent printer and Gary has a flatbed and Lisa hand-carves her signs, which knocks her right out of the equation.

Whether or not you have a 25,000 square foot shop with 30 people or you're working out of your kitchen...... why does a sign have completely different prices attached to them, when we all get the supplies for practically the same costs and we all turn out the same end product ??

I know there are a few variables, but where is the consistency of this industry..... which we once had ??

This is not about old fashioned hand-painted signs vs. computer generated things. The tools one buys is only going to help reach the end goal and shouldn't really determine a normal pricing structure in one's business to that great of an extent, unless you are talking specialty talents, like neon, carving and 3D things, which aren't all that norm in the trade.

So, whatcha think ?? Wanna do a little round-tabling ??
​

 

[Joe Diaz]

What separates shops and causes inconsistent prices from one shop to another? Quality.

Quality can be many things:

Longevity is basically the quality of materials plus the knowledge to put the sign together correctly. One example of longevity: in our area, we use better paints for pinstriping than our closest competitors, so we get the majority of that work because those people want their striping to last outdoors for more than a year or two, therefor we can charge for that extra quality.

Quality of service, might be creating something in a timely manner and/or being easy to work with and/or knowing the best solution for the customer's specific needs.

If materials are the same, and the quality of service is similar, well then the effectiveness of the design is a factor. Some designs are more attractive and/or achieve what they were built (or designed) to achieve in a more effective way.

We aren't selling retail here. We are selling a custom product or service. So it's unlikely that you will ever be comparing apples to apples.

 

[stickerman12]

I think it depends on you customer.
some customers see it as retail. We get a lot of customers and the first thing out of their mouth is How Much Is.....

 

[Gino]

Joe.....

I totally understand you and when it comes down to very minute differences, you have a valid point. That's a selling point or being a salesman. I'm talking about the unknowingness of one's own trade..... completely.

Specialty paints for striping or only cast vinyls or long lasting inks will make some differences, but really, we're only talking pennies when you think about it for the amount of paint or vinyl being used.

I was trying to keep this a little more basic. Let's just say we're all doing 5pcs 24" x 36" 2-sided 'For Sale by Owner' signs, on aluminum composite without the frames.

There are only so many fonts, so many materials and let's keep the playing field more competitive and say we're all using die cut vinyl. No printers and no flatbeds, just cutting, weeding applying one or two colors of vinyl. Sure, a reverse panel or a cool type style will make one look better than another, but for the most part, why is there this feeling that all sign shops need to be so vastly different ??

I don't want to use actual numbers and break down formulas for what things cost us, but end users prices are totally welcome. I know of some getting $25 each for something like that up to $185 each. Overhead can't be all of that, craftsmanship can't be it, either. It seems like most shops have no clue and just get what they can from not understanding basics in business to just overcharging and gouging.

There doesn't seem to be any rhyme or reason for, let's say 85% of the shop's across the country. It's like they throw a dart at a board and that's what their goal is. Otherwise, you wouldn't have so many people trying to raise their prices or lower them to become competitive, by asking the same old question over and over and over.

I've always tried to remain competitive by knowing everything I can about my competition, but that doesn't mean I beat their every price. In most cases, we're more expensive. It's other areas in which we excel, but again, that's not what I'm talking about. It's the unknowing of one's own profession and not having a clue as to how to do things in that profession.

If you go to 6 different vendors for a roll of vinyl, there will be prices, parts numbers and all sorts of things all over the place, but if you get completely same type materials, all our vendors are within pennies of each other. They don't call each other and try to fool them into giving their prices away. Sure a piece of Cor-X is 50¢ more than over here or the ink cartridge is $2.10 more there than here, but again, we're talking pennies per job, so it really doesn't enter into the equation of 5 finished signs.

So why is it whether you buy a truck, a printer or welder it's always a tough decision, but shopping for signs, people will get prices for the exact same thing by as much as doubling, tripling and quadrupling ??

 

[Billct2]

There never was any consistency, at least not since I started in the 70s. There was some fairly equal Pricing among similar size and quality shops, and there still is. But the amount of complaining about pricing Seems about the same, just hear more of it thanks to this Place. One thing I think has changed thanks to the computer and printers is it's almost impossible for the uneducated consumer to know the difference between a hack and a skilled professional.

 

[Z SIGNS]

Nice post Joe Diaz.

I think overhead has a lot to do with it also.
The kitchen sign shop that has no mortgage,employees,payroll tax,insurance and knowledge of what something is worth is always going to be cheaper.

 

[Vinylman]

One of the determine factors I have used over the years has come down to, am I going to do this job for a reasonable profit so that I can pay all my bills and get a return on my investments in equipment and people. As well as pay all the regulatory fees, and taxes required to be a successful business, or am I going to sit at home & watch Jerry Springer while not giving away my talents.

If you are trying to compete in the cesspool of cheap yard sale signs available from every Tom, Dick and Harriett. I'm not in that business any more.

Not to say I haven't done my share of them over the years, I just won't go there any more.

What may set my efforts apart from the local bottom feeders is what I hope is primarily legibility and a touch of added class.

It doesn't mean I am as successful as I would like to be, but at my age I won't loose sleep over the bottom feeders.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Gino, You are talking about looking at signs as commodities. Well for us, our costs for the specific type of signs you are talking about maybe more than some other shops, but we charge what we need to charge in order to make a living and watch our business grow. Because we ALSO do other types of projects that might involve more, we have a higher overhead to do those jobs. We have to making a certain amount of money. We have to pay for a bit larger of a shop with a garage to work on trucks, we have to pay for a wide format printer. etc... etc... We aren't necessarily in business just to do people favors.

It's a risk for us to charge what we need to be making compared to the other shop that is selling the same thing for less and is either losing money to get the job, or doesn't need to make as much (for example they have lower overhead), but the way I see it, it's only a risk if we are only competing for just those types of jobs. It could also be considered a risk to do those types of jobs at lower cost instead of more custom higher paying jobs (not a retail/commodity like product). So in our case higher cost for the specific job you are speaking of could be beneficial, you either don't get the job and do higher paying job's in it's place, or you get the job but at a better price. It all depends on how "hungry" you are and how much work you have.

 

[HulkSmash]

gino, how do you type so much. good god.

 

[Fred Weiss]

So why is it whether you buy a truck, a printer or welder it's always a tough decision, but shopping for signs, people will get prices for the exact same thing by as much as doubling, tripling and quadrupling ??

When you buy a truck or a roll of vinyl, you are buying a mass produced product that starts out with the manufacturer setting a MSRP (manufacturers suggested retail price). The dealers for that truck or roll of vinyl buy it as a commodity for a given discount and work from there. The vinyl manufacturer says this roll of vinyl is suggested to sell for $400. The dealer buys a pallet full for $300 a roll and offers them for $400 each. You pay the dealer $360 a roll because you have more volume than the next guy who pays $400 plus shipping.

But there really is no comparison to a custom sign price because that price is being calculated from the ground up based on all sorts of data and no guidance from someone else. And you have all sorts of competitive advantages and disadvantages. To do an 18 x 24 aluminum sign, the price is going to be different between shop A who has a metal shear and buys 100 4 x 8 sheets of aluminum a month and Shop B who buys 18 x 24 blanks as needed from Grimco. In addition, Shop A has ten employees and an owner who takes a salary of $250K while Shop B is a one man shop with an owner who views $50K a year as a great annual income.

The list of differences is long. Shop A pays out more in workman's comp premiums than Shop B makes in a year while Shop B goes without. Etc. Etc. etc.

Prices get quoted by shops who understand the process and by shops who don't. Prices get quoted by shops who are more efficient at producing a particular type of work than others who are not as efficient but still want to be known as a full service shop instead of a producer of specialty work at which they are more profitable. And, generally speaking, shops that have been around a while and have a reputation for quality design and execution enjoy higher prices for their work than do newer shops struggling to make their rent and that have low prices as their primary focus.

 

[Baz]

Don't forget the brokers !!! :ROFLMAO:

 

[OldPaint]

sitting here and looking at the now business compared to the business i started in.......price is the only variable that is available to most NOW printer/vinyl only shops.
as an old painter, who got paid well for my work.......i have seen both quality of product and design deteriorate to the point i dont even want to compete with what the market is getting to be.
MAGNETICS have now become a lost leader to most shops $30-40 a set. painting 2 doors a vehicle when i started would get you $100 minimum!!!! people wanting magnetics..PAID MORE, due to the fact we had to buy and use material. mags was $150-200.
coro has made CHEAP SIGNS CHEAPER.... got a person here in town doing 4'x8' signs for little league for $100!!!!!!!!!
banners i used to get minimum $5 sq ft.......those with printer are selling to the public at $3-4 a sq ft. i ordered 3 banners the other day from FELLERS. 2'X12', 3X12, 3X6 COST TO ME WAS $107.00 @ $3 sq ft for the 3x6....its only $54.00 I CANT DO IT FOR THAT. AND WONT. printer here in town will do that same banner for $35.00-$40.00!!!
cause he is to stupid to make money............. dont mean i have to do the same!!!!!!!

 

[mudmedia]

Sure, Benny hand paints his. Suzy does die-cut vinyl, while Tom does digital printing on a solvent printer and Gary has a flatbed and Lisa hand-carves her signs, which knocks her right out of the equation.
​

Poor Lisa

 

[Joe Diaz]

Take Dan Sawatzky for example. (I hope he doesn't mind me using him as an example) We often talk in this industry about our shop minimum. I don't feel comfortable repeating what he said his was, (that would be for him to say), but let's say it's much, much, much higher than ours. It's safe to say that he has priced himself out of the site sign market.... LOL. However, that's not to say he won't make a site sign.... it just wouldn't be $500 site sign and it would most likely be over the top. That's what he does. But it's not "overcharging and gouging". The client is getting what they paid for.

Now it's a risk for him to not do those lower cost jobs, even though he could. In order to do the size and scope of projects he is doing, he is most likely not producing the quantity of signs that some of the rest of us are doing. That could be considered a risk. But it's a risk he has taken and one that has paid off for him. So really you could argue that it's actually more risky for him to do those smaller lower paying jobs instead.... One thing is for sure, it would certainly be a waste of talent if he did. He would say any of us can do it, but it takes a certain type of person to do what he does. And he should be making top dollar.

 

[John Butto]

political speech writer

gino, how do you type so much. good god.

Thought the same thing, the man can type.

 

[Bly]

He's a typing MACHINE.

 

[MakeMyGraphic]

it might be apples to apples but if I take very good care of my apples and blow a kiss to each apple I hand to my customer it automatically makes the price go up ^_^ sorry couldn't help it...

 

[Z SIGNS]

I have no quarrel with what other people charge.
They know what their signs and service are worth.

 

[Atomic DNA]

....those with printer are selling to the public at $3-4 a sq ft.

Had a shop here doing that. Key word had.

 

[OldPaint]

right ZO6. most of these doing the price ONLY to sell stuff........dont last long but the effect of them cheapening the product....LASTS FOR A LONG TIME AFTER THEY FOLD!!!!! so now when customers they HAD, go to look for sign work........NOW WANT IT CHEAPER then they would have ...........IF they hadnt gotten it fron the one that went under.

 

[rjssigns]

When there is mass price consistency of a given product it then becomes a commodity.

It seems parts of our industry have been moving in that direction.

Now more than ever I push the value side. Simple things like saying what you mean and doing what you say on time every time. Follow through is sorely lacking in many businesses today.