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Anapurna M2540 FB?

Discussion in 'Flatbed Printers' started by API, Oct 24, 2012.

  1. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Anyone have any experience with the Agfa Anapurna M2540 FB? We have been printing billboards for over 50 years and are looking at finally expanding into other markets. We are currently jobbing out all our rigid jobs and are looking to pull the work in house. The jobs we are jobbing out are small runs of chloroplast, dibond and styrene. We are looking at a true flatbed in the sub $200k range. Have demoed the Acuity in Kansas City and waiting on samples from Agfa. The main feature that is drawing me towards the Agfa without seeing samples is the guide pins. Are they helpful or even necessary? Any help is appreciated!!
     
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  2. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Update:
    Learned a lot in the past few weeks. Guess no one has experience with this model of flatbed. Still waiting on samples from Agfa. Been delayed due to shows and then hurricane. In the mean time have taken a trip to Kansas City to demo the Acuity and have taken a trip to a local shop to view the CET 500Q. They each have positive and negatives. Liked that the CET has guide pins and auto head height but disliked the colors of the print and consumable prices. The Acuity I liked the print quality and ink prices but disliked a weak vacuum, no guide pins and auto head adjustment. I have only seen videos online of the Agfa. When we receive our sample files and if they are of similar quality to the Acuity that should be the direction we head. We are still in the early stages. I am loving this stage though!! Love kicking the tires!!
     
  3. Robert Gruner

    Robert Gruner Member

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    Mar 6, 2012
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    You might also wish to look closely to the HP/Scitex FB700 or FB500. The FB700 is well under $200K and the FB500 is under $100K. Both units are hybrid (belt fed) and both are well suited to production printing. If you are on the east coast, locate an HP reseller and work in a trip to HP Demo facility in Atlanta. HP puts on a first class demo for you.

    Good printing,

    Bob Gruner
    Nusign Supply
     
  4. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Looked at Hp at Isa back in the spring. We have roll to roll capibilities already so we rulled out hybrids. Looking for true flatbeds to fill in the rigid gap in printing. Don't have experience with belt fed but have read they are more finicky.
     
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2012
  5. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    The files that we compared were the sample files that the sales rep had. Our owner pointed it out and he is usually the last to notice things like that because he is not that involved in the production side of the business. We still have a ways to go before we make a decision. Nothing is completely ruled out yet. Just starting to lean in a few directions.

    Still would like to know if guide pins increase productivity and accuracy enough to lean towards the flatbeds with that option. Again, the rigid printing is new to us and just going on what we think would be good for us.
     
  6. WYLDGFI

    WYLDGFI Active Member

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    Oct 27, 2006
    Linden, NJ
    Guide Pins....if looking for a TRUE flatbed would be nice but are not the end all. We have a hybrid QS from EFI....we're used to the way it runs our boards and happy with the overall results.
     
  7. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Update: (never laughed so hard in all my life)
    Just recieved sample prints off the Agfa. Compared them to the Acuity samples of the exact same file. The owner of our company walked by and I asked his opinion. He said "Looks like our operators are just gonna have to learn how to use a tape measure and calipers!!" I think a descion was made today.
     
  8. iprint

    iprint Member

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    We chose Oce (550XT) over Agfa & Vutek and have had zero regrets. I am not sure how different the Fuji is, but a file is set up on the machine to print rulers directly on the bed of the Arizona. Using calipers becomes somewhat second nature. The first couple of weeks every board was mic'd. Now it is maybe one per case and obviously any new substrates. Foamcore, Sintra & Dibond have been pretty consistent on thickness. I have had the machine for about 6 months and the things that it can do still amazes me today.
     
  9. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Our Fiji Rep was very honest when I asked the difference. He told us they are exactly the same. Same exact press and ink. We already have a very stable relationship with Fuji with our UVStar. Getting the same files also printed on a CET 500Q on Tuesday.
     
  10. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Sorry, I didn't mean to come across as the prints were so bad that we made jokes about them. I was laughing at the commit the owner of our company made referring to the inability of our operators to measure anything. The prints from the anapurna are very good but the acuity prints were slightly better. The acuity had sharper text in small type. That was the only difference.
     
  11. particleman

    particleman Member

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    I disagree somewhat. The Agfa anapurna series hybrids I would say you are totally correct. They have mesh belts that walk, stretch, etc. Been there done that. I would never recommend that setup after operating the FB500/700. HP designed their belts to lock into place and can't walk. I can attest to this, the belt will NOT be your source of registration issues. In fact a 4x8 sheet properly loaded will print just as well as a flatbed.

    To be truthful I would really hesitate to recommend Agfa in general. They have closed their distribution chain for supplies allowing them to control prices more so than normal. Compare their service contract to other companies (cough HP), compare their lamp prices, consumables to other companies and see what you find.
     
  12. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    We like Hp and maybe the fb700 is an option. Got a call from our Hp Rep the other day and he invited us to attend a application demo for the fb700 and latex presses at their demo center. I decided to settle for a web demo tomorrow. Like I said before, we are very green when it comes to rigid p.o.p. We have had dozens of large format hp's over the years. We were a scitex customer before they became hp. Currently I have two xp5300 and a turbojet with no complaints at all. I will definatly look at the fb700 with an open mind. What speed can we expect from the fb700? I know what they advertise but what is the true sellable speed?
     
    Last edited: Nov 15, 2012
  13. jasonx

    jasonx Very Active Member

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    Aug 5, 2007
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    Anywhere from 30-14 square metres an hour.

    If you print corrugated and print with the flutes running parrallel to the carriage you can run outdoor which is 30. Indoor is great quality at 14 square metres per hour.

    Had a FB700 for 6 weeks and were pretty happy with it currently.
     
  14. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Update:
    The more research we do, the harder the decision gets!! The Agfa has now been ruled out. We did some adhesion test on all the returned samples. The Acuity and CET were about the same with the Agfa failing. I have not requested any samples from HP but the hybrid keeps pushing me away. Positives on the CET are speed, adhesion, guide pins, auto head height and printer price. Positives on Acuity are ink price, color gamut, 8x10 bed and existing relationship with Fuji. With a billboard background, we look at speed and ink price as the two main deciding factors. The others we can do with or without. With one having the speed and the other having the lower ink cost, I think we will just put two names in the hat and draw one to make our decision!! Good thing is we are in no hurry and have plenty of time. Any advice or anything we are missing?
     
  15. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    The CET we are looking at is the 500Q 5x10 with the ricoh heads. The acuity is the new Select X2 which has a 8x10 bed. They say (Fuji Sales Rep) that the X2 can be operated as two beds to cut down on the setup time and gain speed. They say you load/setup one 4x8 side while the other is printing. The press uses the center of the bed as a home position so you can continually print without stoping to mask and setup. Again, they say, you can also set up the entire bed to print a huge sheet. I keep saying "they say" because I have no real world experience. Forgot to mention that like in previous posts. There is also an Acuity high speed X2 but that is a bit out of our price range.
     
  16. msp171

    msp171 New Member

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    May 21, 2009
    WhiteHouse Staion
    Agfa 2540 fb

    We had the first 2540 in N.America installed in march and have had nothing but positive work from it. Email me at s.pullan@paexhibit.com so we can discuss this printer and whatever questions you have

    Scott Pullan
     
  17. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Like the CET, depending on what model you choose depends on the price. From the prices we have been given, base on a CET is around $87k and go up to around $190ish. On the Acuity the 4x8 advance is bottom at around $130k and the top is the 8x10 advance HS X2 in the $230k range. So it all depends on what model you are after. We are looking at maxing out a CET 500Q and maxing out an Acuity Select X2 which is their new press just released at SGIA. They are about the same price in the $170-180k range. Going to start traveling soon to get some first had experience on both machines. We are not planning on pulling the trigger until early next year so I have plenty of time.
     
  18. Grizzly

    Grizzly Member

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    Utah
    Agfa 1224 hdc

    We have a AGFA 1224 HDC with registration pins. I can print dead on on two sided applications. We also looked at the Acuity, which I think you'll be happy with, we just felt that the AGFA was built better. The acuitys do print really well though! The one thing that I don't like coming from a Gandi machine was there layout. If you want to print a 4x8 you have send over a 4x8 from your rip. With the Gandi and AGFA machines, I can send over an 18x24 and then tile it on the printer to print a full 4x8 or on precut 18x24s. You can't do that with the Acuitys. Have fun with the flatbed market! It's awesome!
     
  19. Grizzly

    Grizzly Member

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    Adhesion Test

    Just curious how you did your adhesion test (material, how you scratched it, etc) and how much better the CET and Acuitys were. I've always felt like AGFA ink adhesion could be better. Just wanted to know what I was missing out no. FYI: ink cost on AGFA is .07 cents a sq/ft. Which believe is a little lower than Acuity, but I'm not positive.
     
  20. Grizzly

    Grizzly Member

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    Utah
    AGFA Inks

    We don't actually track it but it's the same ink that the MPress machines use and those guys do. I do know we saved a little over $20,000 in ink last year going from the Gandi HC inks on a 3150 with SM heads to AGFA Anuvia inks with Ricoh heads on the 1224.
     
  21. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    The 1224 uses a different ink according to my sells rep. They quoted us much lower liter prices on the 1224 but the press is out of our price range. That ink might have better adhesion qualities too. Don't know. The way I tested adhesion was I took three samples printed on styrene. All the substrates were supplied by each manufacturer not by us. I did 5 scores with a razor blade in a crosshatch pattern. I put piece of regular masking tape over the crosshatch pattern and then quickly pulled it off. The tape removed all the ink from the Agfa print, pulled faint specks of ink from the Acuity print and the CET looked untouched.
     
  22. Grizzly

    Grizzly Member

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    Interesting, I'll have to try that little test. FYI: I pay $125/liter for Anuvia ink. I have heard the the CET inks have really good adhesion. Even on substrates like glass.
     
  23. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Yep, that is what I have in the Jeti 1224 quote but the Anapurna quote is $160 per liter. Gotta be a different ink set.
     
  24. API

    API Member

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    Sep 13, 2012
    Kernersville, nc
    Everything I have been quoted square foot wise has been between .10 to .15. These are the Agfa Anapurna, Fuji Acuity, CET 500Q and HP FB700. But if I go to more expensive modles like the Jeti 1224 the price per square as well as the per liter price of ink come down. If we had the existing volume and could justify the Jeti that is the best way to go but we do not have the volume yet to justify that much of a press.
     
  25. Grizzly

    Grizzly Member

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    Sep 1, 2010
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    Yep it is a different ink set. They actually have 3 different types for the Anapurna flatbeds. I would guess its a little more because they are trying to keep the cost of the machine down so they increase the price on ink and make a little more based off your ink usage.
     
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