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Another Mutoh Profile question... faded & washed out prints

Discussion in 'Mutoh' started by garrettdelano, Jul 16, 2013.

  1. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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    As always, thank you in advance for any help or insight you can provide.

    I have a Mutoh VJ 1204 running bulk ink cartridges and jetbest bulk ink. I'm printing on an Aspire (manufactured by a local sales company, Denco sales) Gloss 3 yr. digital white vinyl.

    I'm using an Oracle 3651C profile and the colors are almost there, it just doesn't seem to be laying down enough ink. I'm using an 8pass 1440x720 resolution but all the prints come out faded and washed out looking. Is there any way I can get it to print heavier, do I need to find another profile, or do I need a tech to come out and color match my setup?

    Thanks,
    Garrett
     
    Tags:
  2. FatCat

    FatCat Very Active Member

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    Not familiar with that material - do you also experience this on other media or just this one?

    What RIP are you running and what does your nozzle test look like?
     
  3. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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    I experience this on all materials I print to. Adhesive backed vinyl, and outside glossy and matte banner vinyls. I'm using Flexible Production 8.1v2.

    Nozzle check looks good, missing one or two.
     
  4. TXFB.INS

    TXFB.INS Very Active Member

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    are you using RGB or CYMK colors? RGB are MUCH brighter
     
  5. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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    Meaning the types of profile I use or what I design the graphics in? The profile I believe is a CMYK profile. I design everything in illustrator, then export to EPS, then import to Flexi Production and go from there.
     
  6. TXFB.INS

    TXFB.INS Very Active Member

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    inside the design program is where you select the color code type, RGB, CYMK, PMS, ETC...

    the print/media profile does not decide the color code type.

    Here is a visual aide
    http://www.thinkpro.net/webDesign-p...g-randy/why-does-cmyk-matter-with-print-files
     
  7. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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  8. TXFB.INS

    TXFB.INS Very Active Member

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  9. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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    Huh, I did not know that. I'll be sure to try that tonight!
     
  10. Bly

    Bly Very Active Member

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    You need custom profiles especially with third party inks.
     
  11. bob

    bob Major Contributor

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    I've been printing on the very same hardware with a 3651G profile for years without a problem. Albeit not on that media or using that ink but I've printed on all manner of media, vinyl of all stripes [and colors], manner, paper, photo paper, canvas, textile, heat press, etc. using just that profile and, of course OEM ink. I'd be very much surprised if your media and ink combo would be any wilder than some of the stuff I've used. It is the one from Oracal and not someone else's, is it not? If it's not, then get that one. From Oracal. In fact, I only have two profiles and I can't remember the last time I used the other one. I did set that profile to use the highest dither and gradient algorithms. My rendering intents are set to 'No Color Correction' for everything except bitmaps which are set to 'Perceptual'.

    All bitmaps are RGB. Always. Everything else is what it is, pretty much CMYK since I mostly use the Pantone Coated palette or derivatives of that palette. Gradients are always CMYK.

    There is no reason to print at anything other than 720^2. None. Moreover there is even less reason to print asymmetrically.

    I consistently produce excellent results using all of the above and there's no reason you should not as well. Unless your aftermarket ink is truly pathetic, suitable only for dyeing Easter eggs, and/or your media is from Hell. Or your ink delivery system is malfeasant.
     
  12. FatCat

    FatCat Very Active Member

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    Not to argue, but JetBest's SKY ecosol is a 99% match to OEM Mutoh/Roland ink. I've been running it for years in my 1204 and the only major difference I see is better reds with more solvent smell. I am running Wasatch SoftRIP with mostly canned profiles and produce vibrant, rich colors consistently.

    I don't know much about Flexi or any inherent problems with that RIP but I would be sure to check your profiles are good. If your printer is functioning properly and you have a good nozzle test there is no reason your prints should be looking washed out except if you have the wrong profile settings for the media you are using or something is wrong with your print files.

    *Do you have a good handle on how to properly setup files for output? (I have a 15 year history in offset prepress so I have a better grasp than most on how colors work and I can tell you if you don't know what you are doing it can cause problems.) For instance, if you are using Illustrator with Pantone spot colors are you using the coated or uncoated color chart? Also, instead of EPS I tend to almost always save out as PDF. In the rare event I have an issue with PDF I switch it to a TIFF within Acrobat.

    Please reply back with your exact profile settings including heater setting, how many passes, etc. Also, let us know how you are creating your print files...
     
  13. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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    My doubt isn't with the ink. I've used jetbest in a Roland sp540v without a single change from the OEM ink and I couldn't be happier.

    FatCat, setup is as follows.

    In Illustrator, I'm using the Pantone Solid Coated color chart.

    My heater settings are 40 preheat, 42 platen, and 50 dry. 8 pass unidirectional. 720 x 720, no linearization or simulation, use color mapping and ignore overprint are both checked, profile is the VJ1204_Flexi_Orajet3651G_EUltra_720v.icc. The CMYK input ICC profile (under advanced settings) is U.S. Web Coated (SWOP) v2.

    In Illustrator, I saved as a PDF then used the PDF/X-1A:2001 for the standard with the same results.
     
  14. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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    I've attached a picture to show. The left is my print, the right is what I'm trying to match. My red comes out orange and faded while my blue comes out more faded.
     

    Attached Files:

  15. bob

    bob Major Contributor

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    Assuming that the profile you're using is sufficient, having never heard of this particular edition, try this...

    Save the work as a 150ppi RGB jpg. Saving to a PDF can often generate really annoying color shifts. Depending on a plethora of variables. I avoid PDF's like the plague.

    Bring the jpg into Production Manager and set the bitmap rendering intent to 'Perceptual'. Select the highest dither algorithm. Also consider going to bidirectional. If things are working properly there shouldn't be a nickel's work of difference in the output between uni and bi. Uni just takes longer.

    Print the file and see what you get.
     
  16. studio10

    studio10 Member

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    Use jetbest ink (plug and print system) on Mutoh Rockhopper I (Falcon outdoor) over a year without any problems. The colors are more intense and stronger smell compared to OEM.Use SAI ProductionManager 8.6 and print 720x720. Had some problems with grey (too much magenta in it) so use x-rite i1 color managament system and make several profiles (blueback, vinyl, baner) but also use only one with great results.
     
  17. letterman7

    letterman7 Very Active Member

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    If Bob's suggestion doesn't work, try a double strike - lay down two layers per pass and see what you get. Takes a little longer and uses more ink, but sometimes it'll get you by..
     
  18. garrettdelano

    garrettdelano New Member

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    Alright, I printed with the perceptual intent and with an exported JPG (RGB) and it gave the results below. Still with the same issue now with the blue pretty off as well. :(
     

    Attached Files:

  19. FatCat

    FatCat Very Active Member

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    Sorry to be late to the party. To me it seems either your ICC profiles or your print files are to blame. Both my 1204 and 1604 would have no problem hitting that blue or red on the right. Try switching from SWOP to AdobeRGB 1998 and see what that does for you.
     
  20. floater302

    floater302 Member

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    Have you tried turning up your ink limit in flexi?
     
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