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Another punk screwing up the sign biz.

Craig Sjoquist

Craig Sjoquist

New Member
kinda sad a 4 ft X 8 ft less then $100 full color.... when the value of 4 ft X 8 ft advertisement is closer to $800.
Sq Ft. is fine for costs but the value of a advertisement is far greater and that's what we sell...advertisement
 
B Snyder

B Snyder

New Member
The ad states "AS LOW AS $2.50 A SQUARE." Why does it appear that Pat and I are the only ones to notice this?
 
S

speedmedia

New Member
Ok, hows this? I just lost a banner project for (20) 4'x10' banners because some idiot out of Missouri is doing them for $75.00 ea.

Fun stuff. I think I will sell my printer and have that knucklehead do my printing. I am getting sick of all of these wholesalers selling wholesale to the end user. Thankfully it WILL come back to haunt them.

Thanks,
Kurt
 
inthesignbiz

inthesignbiz

New Member
I caught the "As Low As".
We get emails for promo stuff all the time that says that.
Then when you look, you have to order a baziilion to get that rate.

As far as the being stupid cheap, like I always say
"Just because you have a guitar, it don't make you Jimi Hendrix".

It's tried and true - you get what you pay for.
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Flame said:
Actually bucko guys like that have been around since the beginning of time. Back in your days, I think I heard they were called knockout painters...?

;)

Don't be afraid of the guys cranking out crap cheap, whether they are using a printer, plotter or bunch of foam rollers and paint brushes. Be much more afraid of the guys who make masterpieces but don't know how to charge.
Click to expand...


I understand you're young and most of these descriptions are only terms you've heard others use, but don't quite understand and therefore....make this stuff up.

A 'Knock-Out' painter was basically a "style" that was used when you didn't have to lay everything out in order to hand letter or do pictorial work from overheads or grid patterns. A knock out artist could maybe put down an upper line and a bottom line and letter practically perfect without any patterns whatsoever. They just knocked the work out. Same with pictures or cartoons.... they didn't spend time making sketching and making priliminary drawings... they just attacked the canvas and went straight to work blending and drawing/painting.

One of the easiest way to determine if someone is a "knock out' artist or painter is to watch them draw with a pencil... or a pen. Someone with confidence in the eye/hand coordination will draw with either. A dabbler is someone that goes round and round with a pencil and eventually finds a line they like and goes to the next element. Nothing wrong with that.... it only exhibits confidence in one's own self.

The early guys having little or no talent with paint and brushes were also called hacks in their day. Some terminology has been around for a long time. Not everything we know or hear today comes from recent inventions. Most of the stuff comes from years of use, but the people of today don't understand the meanings any longer. That's why we have so many words that have so many definitions.
 
Pat Whatley

Pat Whatley

New Member
speedmedia said:
I just lost a banner project for (20) 4'x10' banners because some idiot out of Missouri is doing them for $75.00 ea.

Fun stuff. I think I will sell my printer and have that knucklehead do my printing.
Click to expand...


I think this is the last time I'm gonna bring it up but here it goes anyway....the part in red is your problem, right there. Just because you've got a printer does not mean you've got the right tools for that job.

How much does it cost you to run banners on your printer, then hem the edges, then add grommets, then reprint anything you've screwed up?

If I can sub-contract that order to someone who does nothing but crank out banners on a much bigger, better machine....who will send me hemmed and grommeted ready to hand to the customer banners and charge me less than $1 psf for them you can't do them in-house and do them cheaper.

Now, in your example that works out to about $1.85 psf. That's a little cheaper than we'd go but even at that you're about 90¢ psf over my cost....making him about $36.00 above banner cost per banner.

20 banners @ $36 = $720
Taking the order, creating the art, sending the file to the printer, getting them in, handing them to the customer, and cashing the check will take what? Two hours?

Sure, they should have been more....we'd have bid that at around $2.75 psf, but they still made decent money on it. Sure, somebody is about to chime in that they'd have charged $8 psf....the catch is that only a random fool of a purchaser will pay that much for a blank banner order (go ahead, post your story of the customer who bought 20 banners from you for $18 psf)

It's just like doing one coro sign in vinyl and subbing 50 out to a screenprinter. You just can't do them yourself and be competitive.
 
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Flame

Flame

New Member
Gino said:
I understand you're young and most of these descriptions are only terms you've heard others use, but don't quite understand and therefore....make this stuff up.

A 'Knock-Out' painter was basically a "style" that was used when you didn't have to lay everything out in order to hand letter or do pictorial work from overheads or grid patterns. A knock out artist could maybe put down an upper line and a bottom line and letter practically perfect without any patterns whatsoever. They just knocked the work out. Same with pictures or cartoons.... they didn't spend time making sketching and making priliminary drawings... they just attacked the canvas and went straight to work blending and drawing/painting.

One of the easiest way to determine if someone is a "knock out' artist or painter is to watch them draw with a pencil... or a pen. Someone with confidence in the eye/hand coordination will draw with either. A dabbler is someone that goes round and round with a pencil and eventually finds a line they like and goes to the next element. Nothing wrong with that.... it only exhibits confidence in one's own self.

The early guys having little or no talent with paint and brushes were also called hacks in their day. Some terminology has been around for a long time. Not everything we know or hear today comes from recent inventions. Most of the stuff comes from years of use, but the people of today don't understand the meanings any longer. That's why we have so many words that have so many definitions.
Click to expand...

You seriously wrote a 3 paragraph reply about how I used a word?
 
Gino

Gino

Premium Subscriber
Flame said:
You seriously wrote a 3 paragraph reply about how I used a word?
Click to expand...


Nope not about you, but to possibly benefit anyone reading your description on how you misrepresented the trade and people which did this for a living for years.

'Knock Out' artists were actually looked up to by many in the trade who knew better. Your misuse of the term just kinda bothered me and I like to write.... so-o-o-o-o-o.... don't read it if its too much for you to comprehend. Read a paragraph a day until you learn something....... that shouldn't hurt your head too much. :banghead:



:peace!:
​
 
Flame

Flame

New Member
Gino said:
Nope not about you, but to possibly benefit anyone reading your description on how you misrepresented the trade and people which did this for a living for years.

'Knock Out' artists were actually looked up to by many in the trade who knew better. Your misuse of the term just kinda bothered me and I like to write.... so-o-o-o-o-o.... don't read it if its too much for you to comprehend. Read a paragraph a day until you learn something....... that shouldn't hurt your head too much. :banghead:


:peace!:
​
Click to expand...

edit....not worth it. Have fun.
 
J

jjwstar

New Member
this guy is not making any profit at $2.50 sq ft. the only thing he is making is enough to service the printer when the head, pump, board needs replace. the service call will be around $2500 to $4000. how many banner can he print to get to $4000. tons........

again, he is working for his supplier.


i charge $7 - $10 sq. ft.
 
artbot

artbot

New Member
as for the future of all american small business people. if what that business does, can be commoditized, be developing a replacement business model. these are the good old days.
 
OldPaint

OldPaint

New Member
and flamey...............the guy who used to go around and do work for less then normal most were "hacks." another old terminology for some of was "SNAPPER."
meaning they would drive around see something needed done, and the would SNAP UP work...........other sign shops should have done.
but these still had more talent and ability then most printers of today have!
 
skyhigh

skyhigh

New Member
Pat Whatley said:
I think this is the last time I'm gonna bring it up but here it goes anyway....the part in red is your problem, right there. Just because you've got a printer does not mean you've got the right tools for that job.

How much does it cost you to run banners on your printer, then hem the edges, then add grommets, then reprint anything you've screwed up?

If I can sub-contract that order to someone who does nothing but crank out banners on a much bigger, better machine....who will send me hemmed and grommeted ready to hand to the customer banners and charge me less than $1 psf for them you can't do them in-house and do them cheaper.

Now, in your example that works out to about $1.85 psf. That's a little cheaper than we'd go but even at that you're about 90¢ psf over my cost....making him about $36.00 above banner cost per banner.

20 banners @ $36 = $720
Taking the order, creating the art, sending the file to the printer, getting them in, handing them to the customer, and cashing the check will take what? Two hours?

Sure, they should have been more....we'd have bid that at around $2.75 psf, but they still made decent money on it. Sure, somebody is about to chime in that they'd have charged $8 psf....the catch is that only a random fool of a purchaser will pay that much for a blank banner order (go ahead, post your story of the customer who bought 20 banners from you for $18 psf)

It's just like doing one coro sign in vinyl and subbing 50 out to a screenprinter. You just can't do them yourself and be competitive.
Click to expand...

I have to wonder Pat, if you ever worry about the "lowballers" in your area....or is that a title that you hold? Are their others in your area that "wholesale" like you do, or does most of the other sign shops do printing "in-house"?

I'm sure the other shops in your area also realize that, "Just because you have a printer, dosen't mean you have the right tools for the job". Don't you think THEY would find your 20 banner analogy to have some merit (should they read this thread....in the non-premium section), and decide to "lowball" you @ $2.50 a sf....or even lower? Where does it stop? I guess if you're making a nickle above wholesale then you are making money...right?

http://yellowpages.superpages.com/l...STYPE=S&F=1&EG=1&RR=0&paging=1&MCBP=true&PI=0

How much below your $2.75 are you willing to go, and still have a smile on your face???? Surely one of these other shops would be willing to go $1.50.....don't ya think?

I think this is the last time I'm gonna bring it up but here it goes anyway...
Click to expand...

Lets hope so.....but, from your comment above, I think you realize that allready.
:banghead: damn....
 
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jasonsvision

jasonsvision

Sign Slave
Wow funny topic. I am knee deep in grand format work, which I sub out and have no problem getting $5 a sq on the monsters. You can also make more $$$ being a good grand sign installer. If you have capacity as Pat says to sell your work for half price...Why not do it. However I totally agree that crazy low internet pricing, and also understand very low precision printing, have greatly effected our ability to get the $10 a sg. ft. we can get in our shop every day. That is, from the customers who know quality. The local presence always wins in the long run if you have talent and the ability to sell your work. Unless you have a few mil for monster facilities, machinery and staff and go global.
J
 
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