Are big names over rated ?

[andy]

It's not so much anecdotal as it is inferential. It is perfectly reasonable to presume that if someone cannot do X then they cannot do X' as well.

The general consensus from those, myself included, that have experienced Chinese cutting tackle that this sort of gear created, as in designed and implemented, in China is not even close, in all regards except perhaps price, to the same gear made elsewhere.

That being the case it's not fallacious to assume that their printers, which exhibit all of the characteristics of a plotter with the added complexity of squirting ink in lieu of merely dropping a blade on the media are no better designed or constructed.

Pot metal fasteners, holes that don't come close to lining up, incomprehensible but often entertaining manuals, equally incomprehensible control panel sequences, non-existent technical support, repeatability that's a joke, seemingly endless parts replacement if you're sufficiently fortunate to be able to actually get parts, and generally mediocre, at best, performance. If you have an obscure brand Chinese machine and think it performs well I would give good odds that you've never wrangled a brand name machine.

What Bob said...

The Chinese can't even design & built a decent plotter.... logic dictates that their efforts at producing more complicated printing machinery aren't going to be ANY better.

Let me just clarify; the Chinese plotters I chucked out were NOT ancient... they were manufactured last year (2010).

The ancient machines I was referring to are the REPLACEMENT machines.... a pair of 25 year old plotters with a bazillion miles on the clock... better design, better components, better build quality... MILES better performance & accuracy.

 

[CES020]

I have to go with signmeup on this one. I'm not suggesting that you can or cannot buy a good printer from there, but what is happening here is that the word "Chinese" is being lumped into one bucket, like everything in China is made by the exact same company. There are many company's in China and many crank out low end, poor quality machines. However, they also have many companies that are capable of cranking out quality products. From what I can see and have been told by people that deal in China is that you get what you pay for in China. If you want top of the line work, many places are fully capable of producing the product, and many agents can work on your behalf to ensure the quality to maintained and delivered.

However, if you want printers or plotters delivered for pennies on the dollar, then they can do that too. It's really up to the importer to decide what quality and price point they want.

The Chinese are making iPhones, iPads, and many Apple products, which are some of the highest tech products in their industry. So they are fully capable of doing it in various manufacturing facilities.

Andy seems to have first hand experience with them, and I believe his words, I just don't think you can make blanket statements like everything that comes from China is junk, when it's not.

 

[signmeup]

Pot metal fasteners, holes that don't come close to lining up, incomprehensible but often entertaining manuals, equally incomprehensible control panel sequences, non-existent technical support, repeatability that's a joke, seemingly endless parts replacement if you're sufficiently fortunate to be able to actually get parts, and generally mediocre, at best, performance. If you have an obscure brand Chinese machine and think it performs well I would give good odds that you've never wrangled a brand name machine.

Hmmm. My Chinese cutter has steel fasteners, the holes (?) all line up and when I ordered a part I got the part I ordered. If I ask it to cut something it cuts it. If I want to cut the same thing again... it cuts it again. It has performed the tasks I've asked of it for the past 7 years. Technical support was adequate to my needs. By your logic and my past experience... Chinese printers should work just fine. Apparently some brand name machine will cut rounder circles and squarer squares than my plotter but I am happy in my ignorance.

However... If I were going to purchase a Chinese printer (or any printer for that matter) I would have to see it in action and talk to the dealer about availability of spare parts and support. If these things were absent I would decline to purchase it.

Some acquaintance who had trouble with some brand of equipement means either the aquaintance was incompetent (rare, I know) or the equipment was faulty... and not much else. Most people do not like to accept that they are ham-fisted idiots but they do walk among us. I have a friend who breaks things like hammers on a regular basis. When these people have trouble with machines they invariably blame the machine or it's maker.

 

[royster13]

I have 2 chinese cutters and they work just fine......GCC Expert 24 and Cut-3000....

 

[signmeup]

I have 2 chinese cutters and they work just fine......GCC Expert 24 and Cut-3000....

Maybe you're not a ham-fisted idiot.

 

[bob]

Hmmm. My Chinese cutter has steel fasteners, the holes (?) all line up and when I ordered a part I got the part I ordered. If I ask it to cut something it cuts it. If I want to cut the same thing again... it cuts it again. It has performed the tasks I've asked of it for the past 7 years. Technical support was adequate to my needs. By your logic and my past experience... Chinese printers should work just fine. Apparently some brand name machine will cut rounder circles and squarer squares than my plotter but I am happy in my ignorance...

You have used a variety of name brand cutters as well? Or have you only used models made in Cathay?

If the former then your experience has been somewhat different than that of many others.

If the latter then you haven't sufficient information and/or experience to have a valid opinion. I used to think that my GCC cutter was as good as any until I used a compatriot's Summa and then got a Graphtec. The friend with the Summa thought pretty much the same way about his fortune cookie brand cutter until his Summa arrived. This isn't Ford vs. Chevy, it's a Wright Brothers flyer vs. a Boeing 787. The only similarity is that both manage to get off the ground.

There should be a word for people who think their gear is good because they don't know what good gear is.

 

[andy]

Chinese printers should work just fine. Apparently some brand name machine will cut rounder circles and squarer squares than my plotter but I am happy in my ignorance.

I have neither the time nor inclination to embark on repeatedly trying to polish a turd.

In my experience Chinese cutters don't offer the kind of precision and accuracy I consider to be even close to an acceptable standard. The fact that I'll happily throw away the kind of machinery you take pride in owning doesn't mean I'm a ham fisted luddite or spit dribbling moron... it means I'm not prepared to produce second rate goods on sub standard equipment.

I fully appreciate that hearing that one mans pride and joy is another mans skip filling is not the nicest thing to hear but the OP did ask for a honest, experienced opinion... . that's what I supplied.

In terms of printers I'm sure a Chinese machine will, as you say, "be just fine"... as long as the purchaser is prepared to work within the confines of the unit of measurement universally known as "ish". This measurement system is used by bodgers the world over... "it's level.. ish".... "it's straight... ish".... "the overall size is right... ish". Brilliant results which aren't technically accurate or right... but hey, this is ONLY sign making so good enough rules.

 

[signmeup]

I don't take any particular pride in owning a plotter. It's just a plotter. A tool like a hammer or a saw. You apparently require a better one that I do. I'm fine with that.

So anyway... let's see some of this superior vinyl cutting you speak of. Post up some amazing feat of precision accuracy your plotter was able to achieve. I'm sure it'll be breathtaking. All I do with my plotter is cut out boring old stuff like letters to stick on signs.

 

[Custom_Grafx]

I thought we were talking about Chinese printers.

Not normally priced Chinese printers either, but specifically, cheap ones.

Come on signmeup... really... do you think a cheap printer out of China is going to be worth it? Do you own shares over there or something?

 

[V-P]

I think this thread is taking the wrong curve.

I appreciate all the input that you guys are filling in and the good will.

But as it was previously posted : I needed opinions from people who have tried both worlds.

And I believe I got all the info needed.

There was one major flaw in my thinking (which I took for granted), that this forum cleared up .....Support (spare parts - fats delivery - online help)

Without these ingredients the SOUP is nasty !

So thank you guys !!!

 

[signmeup]

I think this thread is taking the wrong curve.

I appreciate all the input that you guys are filling in and the good will.

But as it was previously posted : I needed opinions from people who have tried both worlds.

And I believe I got all the info needed.

There was one major flaw in my thinking (which I took for granted), that this forum cleared up .....Support (spare parts - fats delivery - online help)

Without these ingredients the SOUP is nasty !

So thank you guys !!!

There you have it. Sorry I couldn't help but I haven't tried one. I think you are making the right choice. Without support any printer would be near worthless. Good luck with your search.

 

[GAC05]

"Are big names over rated ?"
Lady Gaga ---> yes

 

[Tim Kingston]

I don't take any particular pride in owning a plotter. It's just a plotter. A tool like a hammer or a saw. You apparently require a better one that I do. I'm fine with that.

So anyway... let's see some of this superior vinyl cutting you speak of. Post up some amazing feat of precision accuracy your plotter was able to achieve. I'm sure it'll be breathtaking. All I do with my plotter is cut out boring old stuff like letters to stick on signs.

How about answering the question first. What's YOUR experience with non-Chinese cutters? Ok, so I see you haven't tried any. I haven't tried a Chinese one either.

 

[CES020]

How about answering the question first. What's YOUR experience with non-Chinese cutters? Ok, so I see you haven't tried any. I haven't tried a Chinese one either.

I think you're missing his point. HE was the one that said if you didn't have one and hadn't seen one, how could you say it was junk? That was the point he was making. Andy seems to have first hand knowledge of them, and the only person on this thread that has.

 

[signmeup]

How about answering the question first. What's YOUR experience with non-Chinese cutters? Ok, so I see you haven't tried any. I haven't tried a Chinese one either.

What CES020 said... I'm not giving opinions on stuff I know nothing about.

I'm sure a Roland or Graphtec would cut much rounder circles and much squarer squares than my plotter. It's just that my plotter is plenty accurate for my caliber of work. I don't aspire to the greatness that only the staggering precision and accuracy of a name brand plotter could elevate me to.

 

[signmeup]

Come on signmeup... really... do you think a cheap printer out of China is going to be worth it? Do you own shares over there or something?

No idea. I've never seen or tried one. I couldn't even tell you the name of one. (and I have no Chinese shares... just an open mind)

 

[Custom_Grafx]

No idea. I've never seen or tried one. I couldn't even tell you the name of one. (and I have no Chinese shares... just an open mind)

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0108147/quotes?qt=qt0332061

You don't have to bite the donut to know it's sweet.

 

[artbot]

i've spent the last three days looking and getting quotes on chinese printers and such. i'm noticing a lot of standardization. there are really only a few basic chassis designs. it seems, because the chinese are smart, there is a gantry manufacturer mass producing gantries, a capping station factory, etc. the chinese printer builders are outsourcing to these specialized parts makers and just assembling. and i'll bet the firmware code to the printer that is a...mutoh, or mimaki, or roland chassis is just as stolen as the shapes, sizes and tolerances of the machines being copied.

i am coming to the conclusion that i will probably buy one. i don't need the extreme tolerances that vehicle wraps and graphics require. i just blaze on ink. the crustier the better. so i'm a perfect guinea pig. i'm thinking i'm going to go with a dx5 hybrid flatbed. i know hybrid flatbeds don't feed well (i've built/modified three) but this one i will tilt downhill a few degrees. did that with an encad back in the day and it fed perfect. you'd think that before scrapping the pinch roller designs, an engineer might ask if they can just tilt the platen and let the wonders of gravity do it's part. on the encad without the pinch rollers engaged, the sheet would just fly downhill and crash on the ground. that's not a lot of friction. worked better than my massive air tables that i use now.

 

[Fatboy]

I’ve seen these deals from China and other far away places. Never understood, why these guys have to be advertising over here when almost ¾’s of the world lives in their country. I mean, let’s face it… if business is so good over there and they have most of the world’s money…. or at least our money….. why not keep it over there ?? Why waste time and money sending chit to the other side of the world ?? The Japanese and Koreans and some others are already doing it, but they’ve been set up over here for years.

Seems most of these things are some type of knockoff. There always seems to be a catch. What does the freight cost you ?? Who is going to set it up for you ?? Where do you get support for tech, let alone parts knowledge ?? When you need help with a profile, do you always have to call China ?? What’s in their ink, since they have different laws over there compared to our much greener laws ?? When they paint the equipment, do they powder coat it with lead based paint ??

For me, I don’t know a single person or company that has one of these machines…… does anyone else ??

That might mean something is wrong…………. or not.


By the way.... where or what is 'Close Enough' close to ??

Very good post Gino. They dump these Chinese printers all the time in Africa........nothing but problems.My opinion......go brand name with hardware and then look at saving by using aftermarket consumables

 

[SightLine]

http://prettiss.com

These guys have been emailing me for a few years now. At least it has been the same guy the entire time. For a long while they not only ripped the specs and designs of the big brands they flat out even used Mimaki's model numbers. I think Mimaki finally got to them about that and they have changed the model numbers. The machines can be had for rididculously cheap - I've priced them from this place out of curiosity and even debated giving one a go for fun since at the price it's nearly disposable. Much like a cheapo Chinese cutter to use soley for cutting magnets out - it's going to trash a cutters motors pretty quick - may as well make it a disposable cutter.

Being as technically competent as I am I'm one thats not so much worried about mechanical but my bigger worry would be driving the machine. You are going to need custom drivers for Flexi, Onyx, Wasatch, etc to run a printer. The Windows driver alone does not make these machines work with your RIP.