Artwork Release fee

[ForgeInc]

If we are hired to make a sign the design for that sign is ours. The sign or end product is theirs.

I think this pretty much sums up my opinion on this issue.

This subject comes up often, and I've always tried hard to understand both points of view. Having been on the design only end of things for close to 20 years, I have never personally nor has anyone I know in my industry or network of colleagues ever charged to hand over files. (other than maybe in the old days of zip disks and syquest cassettes, yikes!)

Of course there are exceptions, and any shop can clearly state their position up front via initial contract. As Joe sates, if you are paid ONLY for making a sign, I think said sign shop owns those files. But if you are also paid for design services in addition to producing a sign, in my mind the client then owns the files. In that case, the end product is the design AND the sign, therefore just like a sign, that "design" or product is theirs. The value of your product isn't in the ones and zeros of the files, or the hunk of painted wood with vinyl letters - it's in your service.

If you are being paid specifically for your design services, whether as a design shop or sign shop, I think it's fairly safe to say the overall industry standard dictates the client owns that property once you are paid in full. (again, anyone can specify terms up front they deem acceptable.) Thinking logically, what is the benefit of not handing them over? If you have provided a quality service and a quality product at a reasonable price, they have no reason to go anywhere else.

 

[Biker Scout]

If you have provided a quality service and a quality product at a reasonable price, they have no reason to go anywhere else.

Doesn't matter really anymore... customers that shop on price, have ZERO LOYALTY.

I prefer laying out a branding package from the get-go anyway. Those are the clients I prefer. They have a little more money to spend and they value consistency and brand recognition. Because I layout everything from the start, and itemize everything I promise to deliver based on the amount we discussed. I don't really have much problem handing over original art files after the initial project is complete. But that's never happened. If they spend that kind of money with me, and we stick out the entire project, generally that means that they've entrusted me and we've built a solid working relationship and they are happy with the work and service I've provided.

A sign may or may not be part of the branding/design process... but the way I look at it, is how I'm taxed on it at the end of the season. The sign is taxable goods. My design service is not. That to me, means it's mine not the clients.

 

[vid]

Hi All, I am looking for some wisdom. Here's the situation.

I have a customer who I created a brand identity for and recently called me saying "I just bought Adobe illustrator, That's what you make my signs and flyers on right? Well, my assistant is going to learn how to use it and create my flyers etc. now. Can you send me a template of all my flyers, signs etc?" We've been doing about 10,000-20,000 flyers a month and I feel that once they get the template they will not be such a regular customer anymore as they've been shopping around on all quotes recently. Which brings me to the artwork release fee. ...

How I've done that in the past with similar circumstances:

I bill for designing the template as an upfront cost and note that on the invoice as such. (Design/Layout)

Revisions to that template for subsequent production runs are a separate line item on the invoice. (Design/Layout or PrePress)

​

Stock photography and illustrations are listed as a separate line item, too. Marked up, of course, and my search for such is also modestly billed. (...and yes, I've had customers question that. I send them links to stock art sites and tell them to find what they want within the appropriate parameters. ...and yes, that gets fussy with billable hours answering phone calls and emails with the frugal customers.)
​

The actual product and shipping are billed as separate line items, too --- I try be competitive pricing, buuuuuuuut then, I cave in remembering that the rotisserie restored '67 GTO convertible still isn't in my garage. My typical mark-up for printing is x 1.875 - x 2.25
​

Now, as far as a release fee, in the olden days I could bill that as labor burning a CD/DVD. Even further back in the neolithic age, that was impossible accomplish with out billing for films and plates or handing someone a dingy paste-up board. "Just e-mail it," is now the request for what once was solely a production tool --- i.e. the art file. 0_o

In most instances today, I still burn a CD and bill for that. I explain that it's cheaper in the long run to have all their artwork housed on a removable disc. It preserves the art should they have a catastrophic failure on their computer. Likewise, they avoid future charges of me spending time looking for their art to email should they lose it --- or not want to look for it on their own system. (Oh yeah, there's push back on that, too.)​

The issues I've experienced with releasing art files have been that I am expected to become a for gratis consultant as someone learns how to work with the template and software. The customer and their order history, determines my mood and availability in answering "just a quick question."

Another issue is how to handle fonts. I don't send those with the file anymore as was common in the days of Pagemaker and Quark. They get a link to the appropriate font site and a brief explanation of font licensing. (The font Archer caused a little heartburn with one customer.)

And another issue, although rare, are licensed images or corporate logos. Whether that is the case with your template, I don't know. But, that may have an impact on the use and/or training your customer on the criteria for that.

...and the worst issue, billing $800 for a t-shirt design that netted the customer $36k in three months --- and then have them stiff me on 10% of gross

For a good customer, I have hidden his art on my website so he could direct his vendors to it for easy downloads. That was a courtesy to a broker that brought me oodles of design work.

​

For a fee beyond that, that's tough for me to figure out how to negotiate on the back end.

However, I have seen instances of that. Not so much on the backend, but more up front retainer/contract work. This was a designer/agency that grew from a sign shop. While not a direct competitor, the shop where I worked would bump heads with him now and again. He actively managed the brands and advertising of a number of local area businesses. His copyright would appear in all advertising for his client businesses. It seemed like a pretty good gig, but I'm not quite sure how he did it. (Before we got to that part of the discussion, I accidentally spit on him in the job interview when I tried to muffle a reflex laugh at the wage he was offering. Woulda been good to know.)​

Then as some have indicated, they would "just give 'em the art." Admittedly, I'll waffle on that. I would need to better understand the template file. While I've read the rants of those blasting graphic designers, I've seen sign shop files that I would term hack, too. For the most part, a good designer will supply an easily understandable file. There are any number of "tells" in a file that show the competence of the creator.
​

With the understanding that art for in-house production, outsource production, and customer use have different requirements and attention to detail, I'll skimp on in-house art all day long to get the job out the door. I know what I'm doing and that art typically follows an embedded shop workflow. Likewise. I may cheat the art by using two or more applications for in-house efficiencies that otherwise would confound another shop's structure. I've got production files, that are press specific. They may have custom ink formulations specific to the job or may need multiple vendors to create.

​

So, do you share your proprietary information, color formulations, die lines, traps, spreads and all else that is unique to your capabilities? Or do you give them a file that is generic, and then listen to them complain that their vendor's product doesn't match what you've done for them in the past... (and yeah, I was accused of sabotaging art by a low price, customer sourced vendor because he couldn't reproduce the art correctly.)​

If that's the case with your template, you may need to spend time cleaning it up, or perhaps, dumb down it down for customer use. That would be line item charge that you'll need to explain to your customer, too.
​

I see any number of variables that you'd need to assess before you can determine a release fee and come out of the interaction whole and still retain your god-like stature with the customer.


​

Now whether or not my diatribe is helpful, I hope, at the least, it offers a bit of insight in how another would view the situation --- now, and in the future.

Wedding photographers are sooooooooooooo much better at this stuff than sign people. You may want to search photography rights and review how those are maintained to see if there's something you can adopt from that.​

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[peavey123]

Holy ****! I come back after 2 days and this thread apparently went bonkers. It's going to take me a week to read all this with my grade 2 reading level. lol jks

So just to update. The customers assistant cannot figure out how to do anything with illustrator. So I don't have to charge any fee's etc. Which is good news!

This thread makes me realize we really need to sit down and revise our pricing regarding design and figure out what that includes in order to make it clear to our customers.

 

[dawg]

peavey

i have to apologize you as i distracted the whole topic..

i think you were scared too early.. as i said anyone can buy an adobe or a corel..
how much they can use.... thats another question...

and yes, it was your learning.. say just up front everything.. worst can happen cheap customers will keep off from your shop..

you also can set price for making a template.. they might buy it..

====================================================

wildwest..

it is not really saving money..
there are two point.. folks always trying to go on side jobs for extra..

if we can teach our embroidery guys for a basic digitizing, then they make it on their own at home after work for comission.....

other benefit , we can make in house when ever really need..

those prices you said, unfortunately true..
private customers rarely feel a design is affordable.. company apparels, caps what could be affordable area..

thank you again to answering..

 

[a77]

Interesting topic... just had a client ask for "all editable files for everything printed in last 6 months."

We of course had been free design and layout just to get the jobs through smoothly. Including vectorizing logos and reproducing text on forms etc..

I think we do need to have some sort of wordage on our website and quotes that protects this work a bit.

What's an editable file anyway? We might use different software and then there are the font issues, many linked images, etc.

Anybody have any samol wording that explains we reserve the right to keep "layout files" and "print files?

 

[SignProPlus-Chip]

This.

If they walked through the door as a new customer today and wanted a quote for you to design the package that you have, what would you quote them?

That is the price and any profit from previous printing is a bonus.

Charge them what you would for design the templates for them and be done with it. If my personal experience holds true, they will likely be back anyway.

 

[striper14]

$150 sounds good...you should have already been paid for them

 

[bikecomedy]

Great thread. I'd like to add this from the bitlaw.com website.

An implied copyright license is a license created by law in the absence of an actual agreement between the parties. Implied licenses arise when the conduct of the parties indicates that some license is to be extended between the copyright owner and the licensee, but the parties themselves did not bother to create a license. This differs from an express license in that the parties never actually agree on the specific terms of the license. The purpose of an implied license is to allow the licensee (the party who licenses the work from the copyright owner) some right to use the copyrighted work, but only to the extent that the copyright owner would have allowed had the parties negotiated an agreement. ​

Generally, the custom and practice of the community are used to determine the scope of the implied license​

. Found here:http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/license.html

And

Works Made for Hire--The Standard:

In a work made for hire situation, the "author" of the work is no longer the individual who created the work. Instead, the "author" is considered to be the entity which hired the actual creators of the work (such as a corporation for whom the author works as an employee).The Copyright Act limits the work made for hire doctrine to two specific situations:​

1. a work prepared by an employee within the scope of his or her employment; or
2. a work specially ordered or commissioned for use
   • as a contribution to a collective work,
   • as a part of a motion picture or other audiovisual work,
   • as a translation,
   • as a supplementary work,
   • as a compilation,
   • as an instructional text,
   • as a test,
   • as answer material for a test,
   • or as an atlas,
   but even then only if the parties agree in writing that the work is a work made for hire.

The first situation applies only when the work's creator is an employee and not an independent contractor. The determination of whether an individual is an employee for the purposes of the work made for hire doctrine is determined under "the common law of agency." What this means is that courts will look at various factors to determine whether the individual is an employee, such as:​

• the control exerted by the employer over the employee (i.e., the employee's schedule and the hiring of the employee's assistants);
• the control exerted by the employer over how and where the work is done;
• the supplying of equipment for the employee's use; and
• the payment of benefits and the withholding of taxes.

Although these factors are not exhaustive and can be difficult to analyze in close situations, it is clear that a work created within the scope of a regular, salaried employee's job is a work made for hire. Typical examples of works made for hire would include a software program created by an employee programmer, or the ad copy created by a marketing department employee.If a work is created by an independent contractor (that is, someone who is not an employee), the work may still be a work for hire, but the definition is much harder to meet. In order for the work of an independent contractor to be a work made for hire, the following facts must exist:​

• the work must be specially ordered or commissioned;
• the work must come within one of the nine categories of works listed in the definition above; and
• there must be a written agreement between the parties specifying that the work is a work made for hire.

Found here:http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/ownership.html

also found this bit interesting

Termination of Transfers:

Although a copyright owner is free to transfer her copyright rights as she sees fit, the Copyright Act contains a non-revocable right for a copyright owner to terminate any copyright transfer. The purpose for this is to give the creator of the work or the creator's heirs a second chance to exploit the work in situations where the value of the work may have been significantly enhanced since the original transfer. Generally, there is a five year window of time to accomplish the termination beginning either at​

• 35 years from the assignment if the transfer was made on or after January 1, 1978; or
• 56 years from the date copyright was originally secured if the transfer was made before January 1, 1978.

The ability to terminate a transfer cannot be negotiated away. Thus, the author of a valuable book has the right to reclaim the copyright in the book by terminating the transfer, even if the agreement signed by the author stated that the assignment of her copyright rights was permanent and irrevocable. Exceptions to this ability to terminate a transfer are made for those parties who created derivative works prior to the termination (see the BitLaw discussion on derivative works for more information on this subject). In addition, works made for hire are not subject to this termination of transfer right (works made for hire are discussed in the BitLaw section on copyright ownership).
Found here: http://www.bitlaw.com/copyright/license.html
​

 

[Colin]

Great thread, and differing points of view. After 20 years in business, it still amazes me how I can get sucked into a similar, yet unique situation.

I recently did some digitally printed labels (2" x 2" and 2" x 6") for a customer for coffee bags. I had done some sandwich boards for the customer before.

He had hired some sort of "graphic design student" to do the artwork, but was having problems with her availability/reliability, so he emailed me the file(s). Photoshop files! Gah!

There were so many problems and things done flat-out wrong that I had to re-work all the files. I charged him a nominal fee to do that, on top of the agreed price for the labels.

Now, he's asking me for one of the files (the main, larger one) for his "printer guy", and says that I will will still do the smaller ones.

What to do? If I dare explain that there will be any kind of fee to release the file that I created, I look like the bad guy; yet if I create and provide an EPS file for him, I hang myself in lost work.

He's waiting for me email reply.

 

[bikecomedy]

Colin does it seem reasonable to you to ask for the actual price you charge by hour for design work?

Might you approach this by saying I made the tool to complete the job but not for the other unknown work which you are now wishing to use it. I didn't charge you for all the time because I was happy to do it to have and complete the job. But if you are going to benefit from my extra unpaid work done to make a special file using professional software and years of practice you do want to give me what I would have received or your printer will charge you to get clean art for this new purpose, right?

From here the answer would determine my response. Some clients are worth losing in my opinion. Especially those that do not take care of me. I look for deals where we both are winners.

Good luck

 

[saintocamus]

You can give the customer a not editable file, something like a jpeg.
But not an editable file. Also, another non trade example would be a photo from a photo studio.
They will sale you pictures, but not the Hi-resolution of the picture that they take. When a customer
pays for a design they are paying for the outcome not the editable files.