Artwork Release fee

[Pat Whatley]

Because most places would go out of business just waiting around for the right clients who are willing and able to pay. "Willing AND Able" are the key components, and are like unicorns to the rest of us mere mortals.

Dan's point makes sense, though. By not charging what it was worth up front you're essentially saying you're willing to work for free in the hopes of getting future work out of it.

Yes, most of us are guilty of that.

 

[Biker Scout]

Could you explain with a real-life example of when a company would license their logo and not actually own it?

YES... go buy a logo from shutterstock or istock. Read the usage terms carefully before downloading. It's outlined clearly how you can use it, and even how many copies of something you can put that logo on. Then notice there are extended usage rights that gives you the file to use outright.

Have you heard of Carolyn Davidson? She designed the Nike Swoosh back in '71. Phil Knight paid her $35. Had she known about usage rights, royalties, etc... she would have made a fortune, or could have sold the logo outright for at least $5000. (However, Phil did right by her many years later and paid her a super huge amount as a way of saying thanks)

 

[Biker Scout]

Also I should add that when you, the business owner or designer use terms like "hold hostage the design" etc, what you are saying is that you are taking the side of the customer, and keeping your business afloat is tantamount to capitalistic terrorism.

It's not personal, it's just business. Period.

Gotta do away with the loser talk, and start thinking like a winner. (My business is struggling, the economy this, the economy that... boo hoo! Start practicing positive affirmations and living in future tense, stop slouching and be a go-getter. Otherwise go and join your poor-me client list and complain about prices and struggle to keep the doors open. Sounds like fun!)

 

[Techman]

we all may wish to read this.. Or at least something like it..

http://myows.com/blog/copyright-basics-for-graphic-designers-part-1/

 

[jfiscus]

Because most places would go out of business just waiting around for the right clients who are willing and able to pay. "Willing AND Able" are the key components, and are like unicorns to the rest of us mere mortals.

I would think that if a customer is not "willing and able" to pay that they would not be a customer anymore.
If you are not charging enough on the front end of the job you're doing it wrong or need to reevaluate your business plan or pricing structure...
Banking on potential revenue down the road is a bad plan. We all wish for more repeat business and target that type of potential customer, but future business is NEVER guaranteed.

 

[Biker Scout]

You are 100% correct. However, that's not real world. Seriously, next client that comes in and wants something designed. Tell him up front it's going to cost him $1000. That's fair and reasonable from our standpoint. It's not too high, and it's not $100 either, or some lowball hourly rate. But try it, and tell me if you don't see the back of his head in about 5 seconds. (architects get easily $1000 design fee, and that's just for a sketch)

If you were adamant, and firm about your pricing, because... well, let's face it, you are an awesome designer and totally worth it. You can spew all the "brand value" jargon you want. But if you have a walk-in client that just wants a few signs and vinyl graphics for his restaurant, he's going to laugh in your face. I'd being willing to bet 9.7 out of 10 potential clients would also walk out the door. Can you keep your doors open for the .3% of people who do value good design, brand awareness and what a solid marketing campaign can do for his business? Obviously not. So what do you do? You settle, haggle, bargain with the potential customer to get him to open his wallet in exchange for your time and materials. Because you've got bills to pay and employees that count on you to close the deal.

Unless you are specifically branding your company as a high end design firm, with moxy... then you are just going to be giving work away out of sheer necessity.

Again, the difference between a counter based store front and an office with a conference room.

 

[TammieH]

Every sign company I have worked at, has been more than willing to give the customer their art that we designed, this spans 5 decades and 4 sign shops.

Having said that if the customer is bold enough to make a request like that, then I would be equally as bold and let your customer know your files are not free.

You are under no obligation to give away your art. But if his new employee is worth a salt, they can reproduce their own signs.

But. It doesn't hurt to be nice, and just give them what they want...don't let your ego get in the way.


Was that wishy washy enough?

 

[TammieH]

oops

 

[visual800]

keeping artwork you do for a customer makes about as much sense as stealing a companies magnets off the side of their truck, ok you got it NOW WHAT? Nothing. All this "my property unitl I die crap is pointless. You created the design and I assume you made money on it due to signage, printing, blah blah blah, just hand it over and tell her you have a copy in case things dont work out.

Holding artwork for ransom is pointless

 

[genericname]

You created the design and I assume you made money on it due to signage, printing, blah blah blah, just hand it over and tell her you have a copy in case things dont work out.

Holding artwork for ransom is pointless

Except we're not talking about just giving someone their logo or wrap art. This is about supplying somebody with files they're intending to use, explicitely, to cut the designer out of the process. That's no longer a partnership, it's a hostile takeover.

 

[TammieH]

Except we're not talking about just giving someone their logo or wrap art. This is about supplying somebody with files they're intending to use, explicitely, to cut the designer out of the process. That's no longer a partnership, it's a hostile takeover.

I agree with Visual800, I know a lot of new sign shop owners come from a different background and a different thought process than even when I started out.

As stated before, a lot of this thinking is driven by one's ego and fears, most of us who became sign people, do so because we have artistic backgrounds and this business can be a great release for our creativity...

Have fun at it!


Like I said before, sign shops traditionally give art to the customer to do with what they choose, ie Biz Cards and yes even taking the chance that they will shop around for better prices,

perhaps the best thing we can do, is to work on our customer relations, I know that still does not guarantee repeat business,
but it does mean a lot to most people.

 

[dawg]

short answer charge him if he asked it..

but consider how much work he brought before you,

if you dont sell it, he change soem and he has your design as his own design..

in the digital world, if a file not match 100 percent... your chance to win almost zero..

also if it were a long time customer you... you never know when he comes back to asking something..

if youre in this bussiness long time ago, and they start only right now, then your years will remain ahead from them for a while..
so theres a chance they going to return..

to buying a program anyone can do.. many can learn them.. creating something what sure works that is hard on the end..

i think youre luckily that they didnt buy earlier..

 

[dawg]

from looking for this, from the customer side...
let me give you an example that happening now..

in the signcompany i working for, there are 4 designer.. full employees..
also the company has screenprinting and embroidery... with several tajima..

when you order a digitizing that has a price.. but.. when you ask same design simply just enlarging, what is not really more than resizing in corel something, plus clicking on recalculating..
then you will pay again the full cost, and if the stiches are triple then you will pay triple cost..

thats why i said, if there are designers, then lets take a look on this digitizing..

first of course i was looking for the free side, like sourceforge and other smart folks creations..

the free programs are working very well, however i was looking for more than using 3-4 program..
eventually i found one , that can be purchased module by module..

took a weekend to start out on.. the different stttings for different fabrics subtrates i can learn from hundred of places.. also there are the purchased files that showing all settings what need..

so from here possible we will make it in house.. and teaching the embroidery guys for digitizing..
beyond the cost, the time extremely important.. sometime the 24 hour turnaround too much..

and possible these things led to, where your customer said he takes control on all..

================================================
also the customer when orderd from you he actually ordered something like you call a plumber and plumber makes a new line to relocating your sink..
can the plumber saying anytimes the house change ownership he need the royalty?

i know it sounds crazy..

but you did not sold a developed product, what you designed for selling like ford selling thier vehicles..

however i can be wrong, and all above only my private opinion (not copyrighted

 

[VL]

I always charge a fee if they want the artwork no matter if they paid a design fee. They asked for a product and not for artwork. Those are two separate things. If they wanted artwork I would have charged much more. We all do artwork just to get the production and hope the customer comes back for more. Their is a book "Graphic Artist's Guild Handbook of pricing and Ethical Guidlines" you should purchase this book because everyone's else's opinion here does not always follow the book. That book has been around for 14 additions, longer then many of our careers as printers and sign makers. It speaks to charging customers a fee and how you the designer are the owner of the digital files. You have every right to charge a fee. You are charging a fee for the digital files, not artwork (because the customer is going to say that it's their artwork, which is so but it not their digital files) and you also have to track them all down which takes your time. I would charge a one time fee and an hourly fee to hunt down files if you have to spend lot of time. When I have legal questions I tend to reread that book. Remember you are charging for digital files NOT artwork!

 

[dawg]

fair bussiness is saying in advance, telling customer he going to be sued if anyone other using your graphic..

now we can watch how many customer will order...

also after we keep ""design"" can we sell it for other bussiness? is it has any streetvalue beyond pulling a customer into a deal what he dont see trough at that moment?
because most customer dont want to know copyright.. they just want to see if the signtist can create something for them..

so, i think the fair with customer telling what you think the design worth... if the customer say he cant pay for, then you dont take the design..
dont give customer a company logo if you intend to charge him every month with design fee.. lawyers can say it is right.. but lawyers also can proof snow is green and never was white..

i cant imagine any etique would say pulling into a contract customer with small print would be right..

again i can be wrong.. but my private opinion if one dont ask the fee in advance, the only reason for later charging over and over the customer for a cost what you didnt defined in the contract..

with simple words raising the fee without agreement..

from customer side.. customer takes the work for less money because he changed his mind.. thats cool

 

[Bly]

keeping artwork you do for a customer makes about as much sense as stealing a companies magnets off the side of their truck, ok you got it NOW WHAT? Nothing. All this "my property unitl I die crap is pointless. You created the design and I assume you made money on it due to signage, printing, blah blah blah, just hand it over and tell her you have a copy in case things dont work out.

Holding artwork for ransom is pointless

Exactly. And just because they got Illustrator doesn't mean they'll be turning out quality art any time soon.

 

[Joe Diaz]

If you are being hired from the get go to design a logo or brand than I agree with Dan, but if you were hired to first design a sign or vehicle graphics things change IMHO. Lets be honest. Dan's business is set up a bit different then most sign shops. People come to his company specifically for design. I doubt many people hire him and his team to create one thing for one specific use then later return wanting to use it as their entire brand. Because that is often what happens. See it's important to charge for design anyway you look at it. But our clients don't just come to us for design, in a lot of cases they come for a sign, to them design is a means to an end.

You cannot always include the price of branding in with a sign job, and when we design a sign we aren't looking at it the same way as we would a brand, we don't approach the job in the same way. Usually the design process is a bit shorter in order to meet a specific budget and it's also not necessary to take some of the same stepts when designing a sign. When a client comes back in and expects to own that design and use it for branding purposes, not only is there extra work needed to get that design to a point that it can even be used as a brand, but the scope of that design has changed therefore so has the value of that design. Dan, I've heard you say that Designs shouldn't be priced by the hour because if punishes a fast and good designer for being good at their job, however would you not agree that a brand has more value than a sign layout that was designed for that one specific use? I guess my point is that if it's important to charge what the design is worth upfront, but the client returns wanting more from that design beyond what was originaly agreed upon, has the "worth" of that design not changed at that point?

So we use this as an opportunity at our shop. Really if the ultimate goal for a design is to be used as a brand or logo, then a specific process needs be taken anyway. We explain that we charge accordingly depending on the scope of the project. If we are hired to make a sign the design for that sign is ours. The sign or end product is theirs. If the client returns and wants us to release that art or use it as a brand, it costs more. The way we have it setup, when it's all said and done, it actually costs about as much as it would if they hired us to create a logo or brand from the get go. So if that is the case why not put the horse before the cart, do it in the right order and start with a new brand.... then use that new brand on their signs, vehicle lettering, print collateral and website....."oh and by the way we offer those services too." (is what we tell them) We have sold more logos this way. A client comes in simply wanting a sign, because we are a... you know... sign shop, and they leave with a logo and the sign. Everyone is happy.

Every shop is different, but that has worked well for us, and as long as you discuss this stuff with the client upfront, you can avoid a bunch of headaches and loss of time and money.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I apologize ahead of time, I know I tend to run off at the mouth on this subject.

in the signcompany i working for, there are 4 designer.. full employees..
also the company has screenprinting and embroidery... with several tajima..

when you order a digitizing that has a price.. but.. when you ask same design simply just enlarging, what is not really more than resizing in corel something, plus clicking on recalculating..
then you will pay again the full cost, and if the stiches are triple then you will pay triple cost..

If you are talking about enlarging a EMB (Wilcom's native file or a file type similar to that) or a raw stitch file (DST, U??, PES etc), you don't just simply enlarge in Corel. First off, Corel can't read those files (unless you are using some type of plugin that I'm unaware of (which is possible), but that has it's own inherent issues with it as well) and second off, if you are scaling up or down, you also have to think about do certain stitch types change. If you go smaller, do they go from satin to running stitches or if you go larger do they go from satin to fill stitches. There are other combinations, but that's just one example. Even if you use a Wilcom EMB file to resize, if you have any manual stitches in it (I typically do when I'm doing blending), those won't recalculate, those are fixed. What looks good at a LC size (4 x 4) will not look good as a jacket back, if all your doing is simply resizing.

A lot more goes into resizing embroidery files then just scaling up or down. Sometimes, if you have to change stitch types (especially from a satin stitch to a running stitch), you have to change how you do the connector stitches between objects in order to keep from not having a trim in places that do not need a trim. Sometimes, you have to do a double pass over areas when using a running stitch, in order to a. not lose the information that sometimes happens with a single pass on certain substrates, but b. maintain good sequencing to keep good production time on the machine when you start scaling down so much.

Also, if you are resizing a raw stitch file (DST or similar), you are in most instances limited to 5% change. Any more then that, you run the risk of some bad embroidery. Some files can handle a little bit more, some handle less.

However, if all I have to do is resize, no other digitizing involved, typically I don't charge. If I have to make digitizing changes (sequencing changes, stitch type changes etc)other then just resizing, then I typically charge. If it's just resizing mind you, nothing else.

thats why i said, if there are designers, then lets take a look on this digitizing..

first of course i was looking for the free side, like sourceforge and other smart folks creations

the free programs are working very well, however i was looking for more than using 3-4 program..
eventually i found one , that can be purchased module by module..

I disagree. There isn't one open source or free program that is worth it's salt. The only one that has any potential at all hasn't had any development to it in 11 yrs from what I can tell.

Wilcom (what I use) or Wings are the best ones that I know about module by module. Unless Pulse has changed, I don't think it's module by module. Some have flipped back and forth. Wilcom has gone from module based, to level base, back to module base now (I've been with Wilcom a long time, seen many changes). I would imagine though you are talking about Wilcom since you mentioned Corel and those two are interfaced directly with one another, but I could be wrong.

took a weekend to start out on.. the different stttings for different fabrics subtrates i can learn from hundred of places.. also there are the purchased files that showing all settings what need..

Lot of places to learn from, but very very few are actually worth anything. There are so many misconceptions about digitizing that it's scary. When you have a customer that also wants to find out how to avoid a digitizing cost when it's the most important part of the process, that just puts it in all into perspective about the misinformation.

However, if you are just buying the raw stitch files, those don't show all the settings. What it will show is is stitch sequence, stitch types and what (if any) underlay is used, but things like density, push comp, how the tie off is done are lost (like font information is lost when it's converted to outlines/curves).

so from here possible we will make it in house.. and teaching the embroidery guys for digitizing..
beyond the cost, the time extremely important.. sometime the 24 hour turnaround too much..

That is true. A good jacket back sequenced properly can take up to 6-8 hrs by itself to do, depending on the design. Add in a lot of those orders in a day. It adds up quickly

 

[dawg]

wildwest


before 2 weeks ago i just knew they are embroidering.. nothing more..


after i was looking for, i found same you said, simply enlarging without recalculating wont work.. i purchased embird..

and within resizing its recalculate automatically.. however it works better going shape to shape and checking on adjustments and then recalculating stiches..

it has same 3d view than pulse does.. so you can see a very close to reality rendering..

the program does know a lot.. fills can be created , or using exist, the digitizing modul also very smart development in it..

================================================

i dont want to comment on the free programs, but i think it worth to try

sophiesew

http://www.thredworks.com/index.php


and stich era, what is actually free, however i left alone due it said for home users only..

http://www.imprimeo.net/howget.htm



also on cnczone a pakistan engineer made a program...

around on the net an autocad lisp, that generate the stiches..

very interesting

============================================================


when i read in embird program the purchased dst file, yes it recalculates automatically the stiches..
not simply makes larger the file, but keeps the density of stiches... like 0.15 mm for puff 3d...
even the trial does it, tough you cant save out..


this was the point i started to looking for an editing program.. when folks told me, resizing an exist dst file to a larger size it might ending up with 100 or more cost..

====================================================

yes i can see the settings in embird.. thats why i went for it..

http://www.embird.net/


stichcompensation, stichsizes. capping on the letters for 3d puff... everything.. for lot less than pulse cost or wilcom...

tough both program looking awsome..

i just need a program be at home i can use..

and im glad you commented, because really folks thinks all program recalculates automatically..
but as i wrote after resizing nedd to recalculating the stiches..

digitizing takes time.. a complicated design for a back side of a jacket i can imagine day or more.. so accordingly its price will be very high...

mainly used files about 5000-7000 stiches.. simple designs, what i think folks can learn relatively easy..

and dont hesitate to """"""run your mouth""" because all usefull you said.. personally im glad ...


best regard

viktor

 

[WildWestDesigns]

after i was looking for, i found same you said, simply enlarging without recalculating wont work.. i purchased embird..

and within resizing its recalculate automatically.. however it works better going shape to shape and checking on adjustments and then recalculating stiches..

it has same 3d view than pulse does.. so you can see a very close to reality rendering..

the program does know a lot.. fills can be created , or using exist, the digitizing modul also very smart development in it..

Recalculating in of itself isn't enough. Also if you are only relying on the computer to recalculate, that can be some issues as well. Like I said, sometimes you have to do different stitch types, that goes above and beyond recalculating.

As far as True View (what Wilcom calls it). That's good and bad. One thing that they don't take into consideration is the interaction between needle, thread and fabric. It could look great on the simulated proof, but not stitch out well at all. In some instances it's dead on, but it isn't a sure thing. Truth is in the stitch out.

i dont want to comment on the free programs, but i think it worth to try

sophiesew

http://www.thredworks.com/index.php

That's actually the one that I was referencing and it really hasn't had any solid development in 11 yrs. Very very clunky, certainly not to be used in a professional setting.

and stich era, what is actually free, however i left alone due it said for home users only..

http://www.imprimeo.net/howget.htm

Limited in what you can do as far as option wise compared to some of the other programs. Not necessarily something that is dictated by price alone, but that does play a part into it.

One thing that you also have to take into account that unlike vector rendering, stitch generating engines are very different between each program. That can contribute to radically different outputs as well.

when i read in embird program the purchased dst file, yes it recalculates automatically the stiches..
not simply makes larger the file, but keeps the density of stiches... like 0.15 mm for puff 3d...
even the trial does it, tough you cant save out..

I would never take a raw stitch file that wasn't setup for puff in the first place. You have radically different stitch sequences that only make sense when you are doing puff (for instance, you do all regular embroidery first, insert a stop code, apply puff and start stitching again). Also, how you do your underlay is going to come into effect as well. Just changing stitch count is not enough.

yes i can see the settings in embird.. thats why i went for it..

http://www.embird.net/

When you put in a raw stitch file into a program, say Wilcom. It's going to make certain guesses. I have had it separate the fill on top from it's underlay and attribute settings accordingly when you import a raw stitch file. It does the best it can, but those are not the same settings that I would see if I digitized the object myself. It's little bits of information like that that get lost once you export the file.

stichcompensation, stichsizes. capping on the letters for 3d puff... everything.. for lot less than pulse cost or wilcom...

tough both program looking awsome..

Technically speaking, all any digitizer needs is a program that has a manual input and you can do everything that the full version of any program can do. Those usually go for about $500. You just have to have the knowledge to do it. Big problem there is no one wants to pay for that anymore.

and im glad you commented, because really folks thinks all program recalculates automatically..
but as i wrote after resizing nedd to recalculating the stiches..

Recalculating isn't enough in certain instances. You have to evaluate stitch types.

The Joker Grafix design (rather or not y'all like the original design, just talking about stitch types here), the one the left is a LC size, the one on the right is a hat size. Those pictures are not 1:1. To do the hat size, I took out the text and I had to change the Joker head. The Joker head is still within the 5% range of change, but as you can tell, it has different stitch types for the outline and a lot more of the detail. Also the underlay for the hat one is different then the one in the logo crest. The underlay for the hat design is not a standard Wilcom underlay, it has to be done custom. That is something that would be very hard to do on a raw stitch file, you would be best to just redigitize it from scratch. It's things like that that make just resizing and recalculating not enough.

digitizing takes time.. a complicated design for a back side of a jacket i can imagine day or more.. so accordingly its price will be very high...

The SAJE logo is one that took me 6.5 hrs and since it was an S101 member, that was $60. Digitizing pricing has gone way done and some customers still want it to be free. I've done some logo crests that take 2 hrs to do and only got $15.

To actually make a connection to the original topic here, this is why I do not give out the EMB source file (Wilcom's equivalent to the Ai or CDR file, but it does still have limitations) only the raw stitch files. Only time customers get the EMB file is if they pay extra for it and they know this upfront. Now I do offer ESA lettering (keyboard embroidery fonts for Wilcom E3 users) and motif files, but that's a totally different scenario. Now, I will say, if I'm just doing your regular vector files designing, I'm compensated accordingly for that and they do get vector versions. But I run it differently then with the embroidery source files of designs that I've created for people (especially the original designs that I've done).