Building Sign question

[Silver Star DC]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this is the right section for this topic. If not, I apologize.

I have a customer that is wanting a sign installed on the front of a new building. The surface they
want the sign installed on, is a curved surface. I have attached a picture of the area for the project.
They are also wanting either the letters them selves lit, or the letters backlit. If this were a flat
surface, I wouldn't have any questions. But with this surface being curved, I'm kinda scratching my
head on this one. I haven't done too many of this type of sign. So I am looking for any and all
advice on this one. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

 

[Marlene]

Hi everyone. Not sure if this is the right section for this topic. If not, I apologize.

I have a customer that is wanting a sign installed on the front of a new building. The surface they
want the sign installed on, is a curved surface. I have attached a picture of the area for the project.
They are also wanting either the letters them selves lit, or the letters backlit. If this were a flat
surface, I wouldn't have any questions. But with this surface being curved, I'm kinda scratching my
head on this one. I haven't done too many of this type of sign. So I am looking for any and all
advice on this one. Any help is greatly appreciated. Thanks.

they would mount to the curve the same way you would mount channel letters to a flat unless you use a raceway and then that would be an issue. where is the access panel under that structure or is it on top?

 

[Silver Star DC]

So you would just order the can letters and install each individually to the surface?
I know the raceway provides for electrical coverage. Do you run conduit from letter
to letter to connect the lighting? And where would the ballast be installed?

 

[Marlene]

So you would just order the can letters and install each individually to the surface?
I know the raceway provides for electrical coverage. Do you run conduit from letter
to letter to connect the lighting? And where would the ballast be installed?

the power would run behind that curved wall, not on the outside. it has lights so I assume it has an access panel to get behind the wall.

 

[J Hill Designs]

So you would just order the can letters and install each individually to the surface?
I know the raceway provides for electrical coverage. Do you run conduit from letter
to letter to connect the lighting? And where would the ballast be installed?

You would basically need to have access to inside that curved space - conduit from letter to letter is ugly.

There looks to be a light mounted to the bottom of the fascia, so access, even though possibly difficult to get to, seems doable

 

[Silver Star DC]

I do think they have an access for that. And there is power to light underneath.
So on can letters, I would drill through the back of each can and run the electrical
from the back side to keep the job clean?

The other option they wanted to look at is laser cut aluminum letters that are backlit.
I know Gemini offers those letters. But would you back light these using the same
principle as lighting the cans?

 

[Marlene]

I do think they have an access for that. And there is power to light underneath.
So on can letters, I would drill through the back of each can and run the electrical
from the back side to keep the job clean?

The other option they wanted to look at is laser cut aluminum letters that are backlit.
I know Gemini offers those letters. But would you back light these using the same
principle as lighting the cans?

options are front lighted channel or halo. same install but the halo would stand off the wall. never run power all over any wall as it looks horrible. there should be an NEC approved access hatch on the structure to get behind the wall. do you do this type of work normally? it is a pretty standard way of installing.

 

[Silver Star DC]

options are front lighted channel or halo. same install but the halo would stand off the wall. never run power all over any wall as it looks horrible. there should be an NEC approved access hatch on the structure to get behind the wall. do you do this type of work normally? it is a pretty standard way of installing.

To be honest...No. I mainly do commercial vehicle lettering, car wraps, and window lettering. I have done
a couple of channel letter signs, but they were on raceways and sent to me assembled. Installation
for those were rather simple. But I got the call to come quote the job, and this being a new business
I know there will be more work coming after this job. I'm also trying to grow my business and expand.
So I really want to try to get this job.

 

[J Hill Designs]

To be honest...No. I mainly do commercial vehicle lettering, car wraps, and window lettering. I have done
a couple of channel letter signs, but they were on raceways and sent to me assembled. Installation
for those were rather simple. But I got the call to come quote the job, and this being a new business
I know there will be more work coming after this job. I'm also trying to grow my business and expand.
So I really want to try to get this job.

are you an electric sign contractor? here in CA it would be C45

 

[Marlene]

To be honest...No. I mainly do commercial vehicle lettering, car wraps, and window lettering. I have done
a couple of channel letter signs, but they were on raceways and sent to me assembled. Installation
for those were rather simple. But I got the call to come quote the job, and this being a new business
I know there will be more work coming after this job. I'm also trying to grow my business and expand.
So I really want to try to get this job.

maybe not the best idea to install and experiment on this job. do you have an electrical license? you would need to know what you are doing so the place doesn't burn down as you would be running wires and making connections. this might be one to pass on.

 

[Silver Star DC]

Their electricians are running main electric line for the sign. I have done electrical before,
so I'm not worried about the electrical. I've just never installed can letters or standoffs
individually.

 

[Marlene]

Their electricians are running main electric line for the sign. I have done electrical before,
so I'm not worried about the electrical. I've just never installed can letters or standoffs
individually.

big difference between running electrical and having an electrical license.

 

[J Hill Designs]

Their electricians are running main electric line for the sign. I have done electrical before,
so I'm not worried about the electrical. I've just never installed can letters or standoffs
individually.

I'm comfortable working on my car, but im not licensed​ to work on yours...

 

[Kwiksigns]

I would want to see the access before doing anything. And know what is behind the wall. There are certain fasteners you have to use and certain fasteners and covers you have to use to make everything up to code. If you can talk to someone who manufacturs them that would be your best bet. I know in MD we don't need to be licensed to run electric to the sign but the initial line from the box has to be run by an electrician

 

[TimToad]

Their electricians are running main electric line for the sign. I have done electrical before,
so I'm not worried about the electrical. I've just never installed can letters or standoffs
individually.

Unfortunately, there is more to it legally, ethically and from a liability perspective than you just stating "I have done electrical before,
so I'm not worried about the electrical."

The companies that are fully licensed, bonded and insured to sell, build and install electrical signs pay thousands upon thousands of dollars per year to ensure the safe, code complaint, industry standard backed fabrication and installation of electrical components and signs.

Without those credentials, licensing, insurance, etc. you are fraudulently representing yourself as a peer to those who have taken the time and made the substantial investment to doing the job right. At the very least, the very least if you insist on taking on work outside your scope and licensing, hire a licensed bonded electrician or sign installer to install these types of jobs and be satisfied with the knowledge that you did the right thing and maybe made a little less money, but still made money on the job.

 

[Andy D]

So you would just order the can letters and install each individually to the surface?
I know the raceway provides for electrical coverage. Do you run conduit from letter
to letter to connect the lighting? And where would the ballast be installed?

Yep, I'm not sure the vernacular everyone else uses but we call it a remote install.

 

[Silver Star DC]

I would want to see the access before doing anything. And know what is behind the wall. There are certain fasteners you have to use and certain fasteners and covers you have to use to make everything up to code. If you can talk to someone who manufacturs them that would be your best bet. I know in MD we don't need to be licensed to run electric to the sign but the initial line from the box has to be run by an electrician

TN is the same. We don't have to have a certain license to install electrical signs. The main line has to be run by an electrician, then the connection, then everything has to be inspected and sign off before the job is complete.

 

[Silver Star DC]

Unfortunately, there is more to it legally, ethically and from a liability perspective than you just stating "I have done electrical before,
so I'm not worried about the electrical."

The companies that are fully licensed, bonded and insured to sell, build and install electrical signs pay thousands upon thousands of dollars per year to ensure the safe, code complaint, industry standard backed fabrication and installation of electrical components and signs.

Without those credentials, licensing, insurance, etc. you are fraudulently representing yourself as a peer to those who have taken the time and made the substantial investment to doing the job right. At the very least, the very least if you insist on taking on work outside your scope and licensing, hire a licensed bonded electrician or sign installer to install these types of jobs and be satisfied with the knowledge that you did the right thing and maybe made a little less money, but still made money on the job.

I'm not trying to pass myself as something I'm not, and definitely not trying to be unethical or do anything illegal. When I say I have done electrical, I truely mean that. I have wired houses, breaker boxes, and cabinets. I'm not new to the electrical side. I was looking for advice on the letter types for the building and general rules for this type surface. I have not installed can letters or cut letters individually. This was the main direction I was trying to drive my question. But that's ok, I appreciate all this feedback.

 

[Silver Star DC]

Yep, I'm not sure the vernacular everyone else uses but we call it a remote install.

This was the kind of information that I was looking for. This makes sense to me.

 

[Andy D]

TN is the same. We don't have to have a certain license to install electrical signs. The main line has to be run by an electrician, then the connection, then everything has to be inspected and sign off before the job is complete.

He's correct, you don't need to be a certified electrician in TN to do that type of wiring as long as it's inspected.
Hell, I know of non-electricians working on live 440 hanging off the side of highrise buildings.... not enough money in the world

FYI we do comply to UL standards and inspections when fabricating the channels letters.

EDITED TO ADD: And of course, it would need to go though and be signed off by codes prior to starting the job.......