Question but i'd hoped to spend MORE...

[James Burke]

I disagree. Shop and those sorts of vocational classes aren't really relevant today. The old ways of doing things are now hobbies. What's the point of teaching a kid to use a lathe when we have CNC machines and the majority of the products built in shop class are now made overseas? There's no point in teaching auto mechanics, it's going the same way. People don't tear down engines anymore or rebuild parts, you replace them. It's all computerized diagnostics and following steps. What about drafting when that too is computerized? You can't hang onto the past.

I guarantee you. Old school "manual machinists" are in very high demand these days....I had one company beg me to quit one job and go to work for them for $5 more per hour.

Mostly, it's in the area of tooling repair and one-offs that make a manual machinist valuable. Along with that, automatic screw machines and Swiss lathers are cam actuated (non-CNC) and still need technicians. Believe it or not...but some of those old mechanically actuated machines can run circles around a CNC machine when it comes to productivity.

Most of what we classify as CNC "machinists" are nothing more than operators (button pushers).


JB

 

[Notarealsignguy]

What would be useful is shop class, plumbing basics and welding intro. Intro classes to the trades so a kid has exposure and options when they graduate or at least a basic understanding of how to fix a leak when they're older.

Why can't parents teach them this basic crap? Do parents have no responsibility in teaching their children? Schools can't teach everything. Lazy parents = lazy kids

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I guarantee you. Old school "manual machinists" are in very high demand these days....I had one company beg me to quit one job and go to work for them for $5 more per hour.

Mostly, it's in the area of tooling repair and one-offs that make a manual machinist valuable. Along with that, automatic screw machines and Swiss lathers are cam actuated (non-CNC) and still need technicians. Believe it or not...but some of those old mechanically actuated machines can run circles around a CNC machine when it comes to productivity.

Most of what we classify as CNC "machinists" are nothing more than operators (button pushers).


JB

It's still the past and these things are going to the wayside. I see places that are apprehensive to hire old school mechanics because they can't find their way around a computer or input their work orders into whatever system they use.
You know what they should teach? How to find solutions to problems by searching for answers and processes. Everything is online now yet people act like they just fell off the turnip truck.

 

[James Burke]

Why can't parents teach them this basic crap? Do parents have no responsibility in teaching their children? Schools can't teach everything. Lazy parents = lazy kids

I don't believe it's because they're lazy. Many simply don't know how to.


JB

 

[James Burke]

It's still the past and these things are going to the wayside. I see places that are apprehensive to hire old school mechanics because they can't find their way around a computer or input their work orders into whatever system they use.

I'm sure that's true with automotive. But many factories still have very productive, yet very old equipment.

I used to work for one the Midwest's largest candy companies. They make candy canes and those tiny little lollipops that the bank hands out. To this day, they're still running candy-making machinery from the 1940s and 50s because it's made better than today's equipment. Their (manual) machine shop was vital in keeping those old-timers up and running...and they made money hand over fist.

The packaging and shipping department are totally 21st century, but in the candy kitchen, it's a lot like stepping back into "Mayberry".

JB

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I don't believe it's because they're lazy. Many simply don't know how to.


JB

They don't know how because they're lazy. Like I said, the answers and steps to do anything under the sun are available to everyone with internet access. If you want to learn or do something, you can figure it out

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I'm sure that's true with automotive. But many factories still have very productive, yet very old equipment.

I used to work for one the Midwest's largest candy companies. They make candy canes and those tiny little lollipops that the bank hands out. To this day, they're still running machinery from the 1940s and 50s because it's made better than today's equipment. Their (manual) machine shop was vital in keeping those old-timers up and running...and they made money hand over fist.

JB

And that's why they're going to the wayside. You can't remain competitive with old outdated machinery in the long term. Yes many places have them but many more are investing in automation and run circles around the hold outs.

 

[James Burke]

They don't know how because they're lazy. Like I said, the answers and steps to do anything under the sun are available to everyone with internet access. If you want to learn or do something, you can figure it out

Perhaps that is the case today, but I grew up with friends whose parents just didn't have access to that kind of learning.

The same could be said for literacy, financial management/investing, business savvy, HEALTH/EATING HABITS, etc. A lot of kids (and adults) are handicapped simply because of honest ignorance. It's still ignorance in the end, but if it never was a priority in your family when you were younger, it's very likely to stay that way...unless something earth shattering changes that kind of thinking.


JB

 

[netsol]

I'm one of the resident tool and die makers. Save your money. I believe a universal bevel protractor is overkill, especially since the blade of the protractor will not be as long as your entire project.

A one-degree error in the span of one inch equals .017". Compound that out across 36 inches and you pick up a total error of .612"...which is just shy of 5/8".

If it were me, I'd use trigonometry (specifically, the tangent function), a high quality framing square and a steel engineer's scale (precision ruler). With a few quick calculations, you will have a far more accurate measurement over long distances. I guarantee it. Essentially, you will be measuring the "amount of variance" across a given distance (otherwise known as "delta"). See my example below.

If your measurements were correct to within 1/32" across a 36" span, you'd be accurate to within nearly 3 minutes (1/20 of a degree). Again, the bevel protractor won't be able to reach out that far. For welding/fab work, you should easily be able to get within 1/16", which would put you within 1/10 of a degree across long spans.

And when it comes to designing, only a CAD program will give you angular measurements accurate within minutes and seconds (and if you're using decimal degrees, that would be four to six decimal places out) . BUT, by using trig and a scale, a CAD program is not necessary, so long as you hold your linear measurements to within three decimal places.

Hint: With the exception of the square and scale, that's how surveyors do it. And if they can be accurate to within a fraction of an inch across miles, you know it can't be all that bad. Also, the Egyptians did a pretty darn good job squaring up the pyramids using the same methods.

If you're ever in my neck of the woods (southern lower Michigan), stop by some time. I'll also share some other cool machinist measuring techniques helpful for layout and design.



JB


ve View attachment 156802

James,
one of the few pleasures in life is buying silly expensive toys.

 

[netsol]

I disagree. Shop and those sorts of vocational classes aren't really relevant today. The old ways of doing things are now hobbies. What's the point of teaching a kid to use a lathe when we have CNC machines and the majority of the products built in shop class are now made overseas? There's no point in teaching auto mechanics, it's going the same way. People don't tear down engines anymore or rebuild parts, you replace them. It's all computerized diagnostics and following steps. What about drafting when that too is computerized? You can't hang onto the past.

I disagree

don't you think that the knowledge that came from having performed one of these operations "by hand" makes you a more versatile user of the cnc? i think you have a better understanding of the processes as a result of this experience

 

[netsol]

I disagree. Shop and those sorts of vocational classes aren't really relevant today. The old ways of doing things are now hobbies. What's the point of teaching a kid to use a lathe when we have CNC machines and the majority of the products built in shop class are now made overseas? There's no point in teaching auto mechanics, it's going the same way. People don't tear down engines anymore or rebuild parts, you replace them. It's all computerized diagnostics and following steps. What about drafting when that too is computerized? You can't hang onto the past.

the downside of what you are saying is, the computer diagnostics can only solve the failures the engineers can ANTICIPATE.
my 5000 sq ft warehouse is full of equipment i purchased after being assured the manufacturer declared it "can not be fixed"

Good news...the trig problem is really nothing more than a plane geometry problem (solving for an unknown side or angle), so you should be good. Don't let the word "trig" fool you.

But yeah...I get you....trig proofs, axioms, postulates, theorems, etc... could get a bit complicated.

Euclidean plane - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

JB

it was funny, trig was the first thing i really had to work at

 

[netsol]

I guarantee you. Old school "manual machinists" are in very high demand these days....I had one company beg me to quit one job and go to work for them for $5 more per hour.

Mostly, it's in the area of tooling repair and one-offs that make a manual machinist valuable. Along with that, automatic screw machines and Swiss lathers are cam actuated (non-CNC) and still need technicians. Believe it or not...but some of those old mechanically actuated machines can run circles around a CNC machine when it comes to productivity.

Most of what we classify as CNC "machinists" are nothing more than operators (button pushers).


JB

and they are limited by the software, unable to do things we can do manually, if we want to be bothered

 

[signage]

nothing beats hand-on experiences, book learning is what has gotten us into this state.

As far a new techinologies, with everything going to computer's (CNC, Automation) the companies that have gone that way are starting to realize that this move has a lifetime that is much shorter and cost more to keep running, They are all using computer hardware, which is now becomming opsolete at a much faster cycle. The repair is causing complete upgrade which in turn causes re-engineering/programming, which usually causes other issues

 

[JWitkowski]

Yep, I suppose so. It all boils down to those damn fractions most of us struggled with as kids. But once I got into shop class in junior high, it all made perfect sense.
Over the years, school systems have disemboweled nearly every practical "hands-on" course my generation knew. I surely hope things turn around.

Computers were slowly introduced in the early 80s, and the main rationale was to develop "tech savvy" kids. Fast forward to today, and schools are filled to the brim with computers...and sadly, not very many teachers.

JB

In my home province of Ontario, high school tech programs are alive and well. After many years of weak funding, there has been a greater investment in recent years for tech programs.
I retired a year & a half ago from being an automotive teacher (while still doing some signwriting along the way). There was quite a period when parents mostly wanted their kids to have white-collar jobs and not anything hands-on. Now that anyone skilled in a trade or other hands-on work being in huge demand (with a corresponding rise in pay & benefits, etc.- finally) parents are seeing what their kids have been missing out on and the tide has begun to turn. The use of some fairly high technology in most tech programs has great opportunity for more advanced students that hasn't yet been realised by many parents quite yet.

ps. Don't get me started on the problem of desktop publishing/graphic design software programs and a lack of competent design education to go along with it...

[QUOTE="James[/QUOTE]

 

[JWitkowski]

I disagree. Shop and those sorts of vocational classes aren't really relevant today. The old ways of doing things are now hobbies. What's the point of teaching a kid to use a lathe when we have CNC machines and the majority of the products built in shop class are now made overseas? There's no point in teaching auto mechanics, it's going the same way. People don't tear down engines anymore or rebuild parts, you replace them. It's all computerized diagnostics and following steps. What about drafting when that too is computerized? You can't hang onto the past.

On the auto mechanics issue, it is true that in a traditional repair shop there is very little rebuilding of worn or defective parts. However, the systems are far from self-diagnosing as a whole. The real scarcity in the trade are the skills that allow for an understanding of vehicle electronics and how to effectively diagnose where the problem lies. Testing and confirmation of the fault can be a challenging process. Often, one problem will trigger several codes. That often indicates a common single problem but the technician must be skilled in order to find it. As electric vehicles will likely continue to become more dominant as time goes by, that trade will see many changes to the nature of repair skills required. Other knowledge will become a real niche area, much like the old hand lettering and striping business, alas.

 

[James Burke]

In my home province of Ontario, high school tech programs are alive and well. After many years of weak funding, there has been a greater investment in recent years for tech programs.
I retired a year & a half ago from being an automotive teacher (while still doing some signwriting along the way). There was quite a period when parents mostly wanted their kids to have white-collar jobs and not anything hands-on. Now that anyone skilled in a trade or other hands-on work being in huge demand (with a corresponding rise in pay & benefits, etc.- finally) parents are seeing what their kids have been missing out on and the tide has begun to turn. The use of some fairly high technology in most tech programs has great opportunity for more advanced students that hasn't yet been realised by many parents quite yet.

ps. Don't get me started on the problem of desktop publishing/graphic design software programs and a lack of competent design education to go along with it...

[QUOTE="James

I taught CAD and Machine Trades and had my fill of it around 2006 when parents were losing jobs in the manufacturing sector. I had extremely low enrollment for the very reasons you state.

Fast forward to today, and the pendulum has swung the other way. Schools have re-established / jump started programs that had been mothballed and now the skilled trades are in very high demand.

As I mentioned earlier, there is still a very high demand for manual machinists, especially when it comes to repair work. Yes, some CNC is used in that realm, but much of the "simple repair" work can usually be done faster manually.

Anyway, it's a debate that will rage on so long as it's given fodder. I think the lesson at the end of the day is to teach our young people that there is worth and dignity in getting their hands dirty. If you don't believe me, just ask the plumber or electrician who's making more than most kids with an MBA...with zero college debt.


JB

 

[Gino]

It's really great knowledge to know the basics and fundamentals of your trade and other things if you can get it. Getting your hands dirty and learning with knocks on the noggin are good for ya, but no one wants to do it that way. They just wanna jump in head first and tread water and then b!tch about no one wanting to help them. Look at this lace. How many people are here, who don't have a clue about anything...... from their equipment, to their design/layout capabilities, to their execution, to the business end of things. They don't want help, they want hand-outs. How can I make this cheaper and fool my customers ?? How can I use this, instead of that and still fool the customer ?? Can I use gum instead of physical fasteners ?? Where's the cheapest ink, vinyl, help, software, tools, equipment, help and the list just goes on.

It won't be long, in which no signs will be fabricated in any fashion any of us know of today. Things are changing at such a rate, ya better get with it, or just get run over by the 'progress wagon'.

 

[Johnny Best]

When you stand in the medium and look forlorn and hold a sign saying " desperate, know nothing about business, need help, God Bless".
That "progress wagon" will jump the curb and knock you for a loop. Then you go to Morgan&Morgan and get a large cash settlement.

 

[Gino]

Or these guys................

 

[Notarealsignguy]

I agree trades are in demand but you learn these things on the job, not in school. These votech programs may help a small few but the majority of them are just a money grab. The real problem is with what gino said, nobody wants to learn and nobody can shut their mouth or focus long enough to absorb information. Learning a trade is not rocket science, you have to put in your time and move your way up. You want to learn shear and brake, start by sweeping the floors in a fab shop. Stay late, buy the boss a case of beer and ask him to show you a few things in the evening, on your own time. Many can't even succeed at sweeping the floor. The other issue with vocational schools is the kids come out with the expectation that they can jump right in and get paid as if they've been around for 30 years.