Calling all Design Police............................................

[TXFB.INS]

and then there is THAT JOB... you got a 72 dpi jpeg, to work from,YOU rebuild the whole logo, into a vector , blown up to a 4 foot X 10 foot backlit sign...................THEN A COUPLE YEARS LATER, they call you and ask YOU TO SEND THE VECTOR FILE TO ANOTHER SIGN COMPANY so that company can letter the doors on a truck .............and expect it FOR FREE!!!!!!!!!!! i sent them the ORIGINAL 72 DPI JPEG)))))

this EXACTLY

as soon as it has had 1 pixel changed that file does not leave the shop unless paid for.
if someone is going to do the work then let them go through the same hassles/recreations that you went through

 

[TyrantDesigner]

Can't believe I missed this one. I really don't know the grey area here ... the purist in me screams don't reproduce it identically if he didn't pay that last guy for his design work and get it free and clear. (i also make people sign a release that they own the artwork since most people think they completely own the artwork that comes out of every shop they go to get graphics from which still confuses me) ... the non purist in me looks at a design and says ... "it's 2 boxes and a word in it ... why the **** not" ... but I get around having to reproduce crappy artwork that you know didn't have a transfer of intellectual property agreement drafted ... is to charge more for reproduction of the artwork. 9 times out of 10 I spend about 25-50% longer reproducing a cruddy 'logo' than creating something new and better from scratch. If they want to know why it costs more, tell them what goes into it and how much longer it takes on a piece of art that isn't the best (or trademarked) to begin with. Others have talked about upselling ... the only upselling is talking to the customer and asking them if they've grown as a company in the last X years ... if they have, why do they want to keep the same old logo when a new one would let everyone know you're growing and changing as a company. I might have one or two out of 20 that keep the old art when you show them a brief 'Look what I can do' and it costs less to go new and cleaner. Generally the ones that don't want to change ... it's been a logo they create, their kid/nephew/grandson/dog with a crayon/neighbors goat/whatever created or something they spent a nice hunk of cash on and have had for 30 years ... either way it's win/win. Plus all my work has a little 'If you would like to own the intellectual property of this artwork ...' in the job agreement for original artwork ... so they know it's available and what they get with it.

 

[smhdesigns]

i agree if no watermark/copyright mark its free range on duplication. as far as you doing the layout and then them having it done somewhere else, i have dealt with this many many times over. i found a solution and it seems to hold well with my clients. require a 50% (of the overall amount) deposit on the job and tell them it will applied to final balance when order is complete. in essence if they don't have you do the work, you have been paid for your time in the design process. if they come back to place the order then you have already collected the amount needed for supplies. just my 2 cents hope it helps.

 

[WB]

I had the exact same thing happen to me a couple weeks ago. I had a guy come in with and older Ford truck, the truck must have been 20 years old and the vinyl text on the side was 10 yrs old. He had bought the truck from someone and was starting his "own company" and wanted the name and number removed and replaced AND a few words added. He wanted what I added to match what was on this truck exactly! size, font and color.. I told him size and font yes color NO.. (it's 10 yr old vinyl),. after looking at what he wants to add and what needs to be removed I told him I'd have to remove it all and do it over again. I might as well of told him i was taking his leg as payment.

I told him t's easier and cheaper for me to taking everything off and start fresh then try to match whats there and make what he wanted fit. plus we could make it flow better and move the information around instead of having 10 lines of text stuck on the doors..

gave him a quote never heard back.. probably for the better..

 

[Kentucky Wraps]

i agree if no watermark/copyright mark its free range on duplication. as far as you doing the layout and then them having it done somewhere else, i have dealt with this many many times over. i found a solution and it seems to hold well with my clients. require a 50% (of the overall amount) deposit on the job and tell them it will applied to final balance when order is complete. in essence if they don't have you do the work, you have been paid for your time in the design process. if they come back to place the order then you have already collected the amount needed for supplies. just my 2 cents hope it helps.

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
Copyright Law 101 should be it's own thread in this Forum.
Just because someone doesn't have a watermark/copyright mark on artwork or design doesn't mean it's free "range" (you mean rein) on duplication.
Even if the customer paid ABCDesign Shop to create it.
The creator of the design owns the rights to reproduce their own creation unless otherwise agreed upon.
Example: A photographer is hired to take photos. They can sell you prints of the photos they took of you...but you don't have the right to reproduce them unless it's in the contract.
Regardless of watermarks being present. Do most include rights to the photos...sure. Some sell the rights separately. Some allow reproduction for personal use only. (not commercial use).

Now does that mean fixing someones text on a vehicle as a repair or update is infringing another shops copyright...no.
Is it a big deal in most cases when shops encounter this issue...probably not.
But STOP disseminating falsehoods people.

 

[bob]

i agree if no watermark/copyright mark its free range on duplication. ...)

You might want to familiarize yourself with some of the finer points of the Berne Convention, of which the USofA signed onto in 1989, before you drop your keyboard into gear and look more the fool.

 

[Rick]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
Copyright Law 101 should be it's own thread in this Forum.
Just because someone doesn't have a watermark/copyright mark on artwork or design doesn't mean it's free "range" (you mean rein) on duplication.
Even if the customer paid ABCDesign Shop to create it.
The creator of the design owns the rights to reproduce their own creation unless otherwise agreed upon.
Example: A photographer is hired to take photos. They can sell you prints of the photos they took of you...but you don't have the right to reproduce them unless it's in the contract.
Regardless of watermarks being present. Do most include rights to the photos...sure. Some sell the rights separately. Some allow reproduction for personal use only. (not commercial use).

Now does that mean fixing someones text on a vehicle as a repair or update is infringing another shops copyright...no.
Is it a big deal in most cases when shops encounter this issue...probably not.
But STOP disseminating falsehoods people.

You might want to familiarize yourself with some of the finer points of the Berne Convention, of which the USofA signed onto in 1989, before you drop your keyboard into gear and look more the fool.

This....

I only design, so.... does all the work I do for a client transfer all
the rights or reproduction to that client or some sign shop to reinterpret?

Absolutely not.

Why?
Some layouts can not be transfered if they are using clipart or photos
that have restricted usage... or the client did not pay for extended usage
of the artwork. In other words, I get paid more for a fleet, than a single
wrap.

Do I want my client going to some sign shop to have some teenaged zit-faced
production monkey re-interpreting my layout and usually substituting fonts and
poor vectorizing skills? I don't trust most sign shops with that.

That said, if a client did get another vehicle, or needed service. I would gladly
send the file. Granted that the sign shop can not use the file for work above
and beyond that particular job.

 

[phototec]

Do I want my client going to some sign shop to have some teenaged zit-faced
production monkey re-interpreting my layout and usually substituting fonts and
poor vectorizing skills? I don't trust most sign shops with that.

:ROFLMAO:



Rick, I like a man that says what he means and means what he says....

I'm with you 1000% on this issue.

 

[WCSign]

If I pay you to build a fence in my back yard, its my fence not yours. You used your design skills, your tools, your knowledge. If you are experienced or you gave me some super dazzling design that noone has ever seen, it is YOUR responsibility to charge me for that.


If 10 years later, a tree falls on the fence and I get my wife's cousin's dad who now does fences to fix it and he copies your exact design to make it match, so what.



This is why Identity and Branding companies get paid to do a logo and provide all the files, fonts and pantones. After its out the door who cares.

So if you do a design that you think is worthy, then you should charge for the design separately and give them the vector files. Obviously if they are going down the road later, they arent happy with you.


Now if you are in this conversation and you think picking a font and a color is worthy of a design.. then youre wrong. I give that type stuff away all day long and if my customer wants to go down the road for something ill shoot them the files, or if johnny sign guy recognizes the font and recreates something for them, cool.

Youre damn sure that if a client comes in with orange text in impact font with a black star behind it and wants it reproduced, ill happily do it and take his money... if you think that is a "design" tighten up


All in all, trying to "lock" people in to using your service is garbage.. we ALL hate it with cell phone companies.. so why try and do it with your clients. If youre not charging for the "design" you had better build it into the cost of the first order, just incase you never see them again.

 

[phototec]

If I pay you to build a fence in my back yard, its my fence not yours. You used your design skills, your tools, your knowledge. If you are experienced or you gave me some super dazzling design that noone has ever seen, it is YOUR responsibility to charge me for that.


If 10 years later, a tree falls on the fence and I get my wife's cousin's dad who now does fences to fix it and he copies your exact design to make it match, so what.



This is why Identity and Branding companies get paid to do a logo and provide all the files, fonts and pantones. After its out the door who cares.

So if you do a design that you think is worthy, then you should charge for the design separately and give them the vector files. Obviously if they are going down the road later, they arent happy with you.


Now if you are in this conversation and you think picking a font and a color is worthy of a design.. then youre wrong. I give that type stuff away all day long and if my customer wants to go down the road for something ill shoot them the files, or if johnny sign guy recognizes the font and recreates something for them, cool.

Youre damn sure that if a client comes in with orange text in impact font with a black star behind it and wants it reproduced, ill happily do it and take his money... if you think that is a "design" tighten up


All in all, trying to "lock" people in to using your service is garbage.. we ALL hate it with cell phone companies.. so why try and do it with your clients. If youre not charging for the "design" you had better build it into the cost of the first order, just incase you never see them again.

Very good post, I like the reference to the fence.

I have always charged for the design part of any job separately, mostly because that's all I did before branching out into the sign world. When I do wrap jobs, the design fee is totally separate from the wrap price, and it varies on how involved the design is, weather or not I have to do commercial digital photography (like studio shoots of food items for a food truck), or if I have to create branding and create a logo for the project, etc.

I look at it much like your fence analogy, once they pay me for my creative design work, it belongs to them and they can have it. People get all hung up on their sign work and try and lump it into a category like it's some master work of art and demand royalties from it, when the truth be known, about 90% of the work I see coming out of sign shops is NOT art at all.

Now Grandpa Dan's designs are considered high end design work in my book, and should be protected from duplication, but for the most part, like Gino said, "I'm getting tired of going by the book, when the customer knows what they want and has no rights [or can't prove] ownership to the copy/logo/whatever on their own personal item... and letting some schmuck do the work later."

No Biggie!!!

 

[visual800]

I know there has been discussion before on if a customer doesnt actually purchase your art, the art is yours forever. Thats is just stupid. If I create soemthing for someone once they use it and I am able to recreate things with it, it is theirs. It is their name, their logo to use however they want.

I think this was on Letterheads a few years back. Guys on there talking about they OWN customer art because it never was purchased. Didnt make any sense to me

 

[nikdoobs]

If its just text and layout elements I don't think its a big deal to re-create it. I try to put myself in the other persons shoes on this kind of stuff. If I was the original artist I would be upset that customer went to someone else, but I'm not going to file a law suite over a text layout (unless its hand drawn fonts or something super custom).

If you want to be super ethically/legally correct you could give the other sign company a call and get their permission, but I don't think its too big of a deal.

Now if its a detailed wrap with a lot of custom logos and artwork then I would get permission, or make sure the customer owns the rights to the artwork.

 

[bob]

If I pay you to build a fence in my back yard, its my fence not yours. You used your design skills, your tools, your knowledge. If you are experienced or you gave me some super dazzling design that noone has ever seen, it is YOUR responsibility to charge me for that.


If 10 years later, a tree falls on the fence and I get my wife's cousin's dad who now does fences to fix it and he copies your exact design to make it match, so what...

A fence is not a creative work, something which is unambiguously defined and protected by current copyright statute.

Your analogy does, however, fall neatly into the category of 'tortured reasoning'.

 

[Joe Diaz]

Sounds like a good opportunity to sell a logo. Here is a scenario that happens at our shop.

Customer: "I need you to put this design on a sign."

Us: "Did the designer who created this supply you with a vector version of that art. Perhaps he or she put it on a disk for you."

Customer: "No I don't have a disk or any files."

Us: "OK then. We have 4 options moving forward.

1. We could trace this design assuming you are the owner of the design, but it takes time to do that and we would charge for that time.

2. You could ask the original designer to supply you with a vector file, this way we won't have to trace it, thus saving you money.

3. Usually it's easier for us to design something from scratch compared to tracing a design, tracking down the exact same fonts, etc... We can design something new and it will look and work better than what you have there anyway.

4. Or we could take the opportunity to create a brand new logo for you. The benefits of creating this logo is that we would be creating something that would work on all sorts of different applications, not just this one sign. After creating something you like and that your customers will respond well too, we will supply you with a disk filled with your logo in multiple formats. This way, when you go to get signs made, t-shirts made, business cards, etc... you wont be charged every time someone has to recreate or trace your new logo, because those files they need will be on that disk. This is the only option where we will provide you with art files in multiple formats. You would have to buy a logo from us, to use any design as a logo."

Possible Customer Response: "Yeah but I've been using this (old) design for years, it's my logo I think I might rather have you trace it."

Us: "We can certainly do that, however, consider this. Companies update their logo and image all the time, even the really big, successful ones. In fact they do it all the time because they realize the value of freshening up their image from time to time. Also our logos are designed to make you money. You have been successful in the past despite your existing logo. REALLY, your existing logo has been costing you money every time you try to use it and someone needs to trace it. Think of this as an investment."

Or something like that.

 

[Rick]

Opinions and business practice and what is correct has
nothing to do with copyright if copyright has not been
transferred. The way it's transferred is a written statement.
Sign shops are NOT copyright police. But they should cover
their arse.

A good business practice for everyone is have a client
sign a waiver making them responsible for any infringement
and they they claim ownership of the artwork.

Another good business practice is giving the client a path to
own the artwork, or at the very least, not hold it hostage and
allow reproduction, for free or very low cost.

Yet another... charge for the layout/design, what it's worth,
not the time it took to make it.

Most signshops replicate, I have redrawn my share of layouts,
logos and designs. But it does not give us permission to redraw
everything given to us.

 

[Rick]

Here is proof that sign shops need to let the designer do his job.

What I did....
And then what some hack did...

My pitted arse - cash or credit or when the check clears, customers always right!

Some of you sign shops suck!

FUGGERS!

 

[WCSign]

A fence is not a creative work, something which is unambiguously defined and protected by current copyright statute.

Your analogy does, however, fall neatly into the category of 'tortured reasoning'.

ok well how about a statue of a bear cut out of a tree trunk? I might want another one in 10 years and the guy who did my original one may have chopped his arm off with a chainsaw. Im gonna have to get another chainsaw wielding creative soul to make me a copy. Am I allowed to do this, or is a one armed guy with a michael mask gonna come knocking at my door?

Copyright statute does not apply to half the things you guys wished it did and I bet less than 5 of you have ANY experience with copyrights and trademarks. TRUE logo designers and branders SELL their artwork and are done with it.

Sign shops, whether skilled or not seem to always think they are designers, so they whip up some crappy font based thing they call a logo. They do a banner and some lettering for someones car, charge em a few hundred and send em on their way.

3 months later the naive customer calls the almighty sign shop to get the "logo" so they can make a run of shirts. Sign shop wont let it go unless the customer now pays $400... its B.S. And if any of you act like that, you deserve to lose customers and get your "designs" ripped.


Now for those of you that do outstanding work, im sure that you charge separately for your branding and designs, or you should.

The bottom line is this... You have 2 choices: A) give the artwork away with the job B) charge for the artwork

Option C where you hold it hostage is bad business

 

[Stanton]

. . . It amazes me how many members on this site in the past have gotten other members in trouble by calling phone numbers and e-mailing behind member's backs here directly to the customer creating all kinds of messes.

Integrity is a rare commodity.

 

[GAC05]

Here is proof that sign shops need to let the designer do his job.

What I did....
And then what some hack did...

My pitted arse - cash or credit or when the check clears, customers always right!

Some of you sign shops suck!

FUGGERS!

I love the look of your bowling sign
but that grey ball impaled on the yardarm is disturbing to me for some reason.......

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Rick]

I love the look of your bowling sign
but that grey ball impaled on the yardarm is disturbing to me for some reason.......

wayne k
guam usa

I agree, but my anti-gravity device wasn't working that day...
besides, it's following the swoosh to make that split.