Caveat Emptor: (Thinking of buy Wasatch Softrip?)

jimmys · Mar 12, 2010

CES020 said:
For less than $50 worth of their time, they could resolve this issue in minutes, and look like hero's. It would immediately go from a very public negative to a very public positive.

If it were my business and I were reading this, I'd be saying to myself "how can I get this resolved as quickly as possible?", and my personal decision would be to tell someone in tech support to get the file and get it to you, and then I'd draft up a response to this post apologizing for not being more plugged into my customers, and I'd thank you for bringing this poor policy to light so that we can fix it and keep our customers happy, or something along those lines.

It's so easy to fix this and turn it into a positive for them. If they don't, then it'll say a lot about their company to a lot of people.

Very wise words!

Jimmy

Bly · Mar 12, 2010

Do they have an FTP server?
Sometimes companies keep all sorts of old software, betas etc sitting on them for years.
I can't imagine their competition bending over to give somebody a version a couple of years old either.
You haven't said why don't you have a backup copy..

jimmys · Mar 13, 2010

Read the post(s) Luke, er, I mean Bly!

jimmys · Mar 13, 2010

Read the post Luke, er, I mean Bly!

jimmys · Mar 13, 2010

G-Artist said:
I've met them at various show over the years and I do not care how highly printer companies recommend their product it is something I'd never buy (because they gave me the creeps and were extremely haughty).

Your experience confirms that and thank you for posting as it comes at a juncture where I may have to purchase a RIP in the very near future.

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ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style> As a matter of fact, I had the same experience at several trade shows, and the only reason I bought Wasatch was because at the time they were the only ones promoting a variable data option, which I really wanted and paradoxically, I paid for but unfortunately, have never used); and because my dealer (Nusign) insisted that the colors came out better (had more pop) than Flexisign, which was what I really wanted to buy.

Later I found out that Nusign was having an issue with the makers of Flexisign.

I still have a not for resale copy of flexi (81!) that Nusign gave me, with a 30 day clock and I only use it to import a file, place a contour cut on it and export it to Wasatch (therefore I still have about 400 hours on it).<o

></o

>
I don’t use it to print because it does not have a driver for my Roland 545EX Pro IIV
Thank you for your contribution, you are entitle to a free tee shit which I intend to distribute at the next show we participate in.
<o

></o

>

trakers · Mar 13, 2010

Wasatch came with our Mutoh. I've called them a couple times with easy questions and they were fine to work with.

That said, I called about 2 weeks before the original service contract was getting ready to expire so that I could insure I had the latest build before it did.

They tried really hard to sell me a renewal of the service contract, and I would like to have it, but I felt it was overpriced.

They sort of remind me of Adobe, selling grossly oeverpriced software then trying to get even more from their customers. As with Adobe products, that is exactly what creates a demand for illegal copies.

jimmys · Mar 13, 2010

joeshaul said:
"We don't keep older versions"....... What kind of ignorant BS excuse is that, as a former programmer I find it an idiotic thing to say. They don't keep the files but the good ol mates at Pirateb0ay do? What business are they trying to be in with that kind of attitude?

Imagine how many customers we'd lose if we told them that. "That sign you made a year ago, I'd like another for a new location", "oh, yeah, about that, we don't keep older designs".

I started in graphic when I bought my first Apple II (64k of RAM, which I later upgraded to 128K of Ram, therefore converting it to an Apple IIe (for enhanced), and I still have copies of the shit I produced back then.

So let us believe Wasatch when they say they don't keep (live) copies of older software. How come they did not back it up?

jimmys · Mar 13, 2010

GXSignCo said:
That is a bunch of crap. I've used SoftRip since version 5.1 or 5.3 and currently have 6.5. Though I've not had a HD crash to lose everything, I find that very ridiculous that they can find no empathy to provide you with just a link. Maybe I can figure out a way to get you what you need.

I appreciate the fact the you, being a software developer who everyone I have spoken to, via email, telephone, or hard media; or have read their post extolling your virtuous customer service; would feel outrage about the bullshit Wasatch is trying to pull (and based on the sampling I have read here; has pulled on many other of our colleagues).

Jimmy

jimmys · Mar 13, 2010

FatCat said:
I've only been a Wasatch user since last year. I currently have a service contract, and they've helped me on numerous occasions - BUT - I also did sense something in their attitude. A bit of arrogance perhaps, almost like I was bothering them. It wouldn't hurt them to brush up on their people skills. Still, the software is good and does what it needs to do.

I think it's pretty lousy how they're treating you, but in the same breath a backup copy would have saved your bacon. With the relatively low price of external drives, etc. there is absolutely no excuse these days to not have backups of important files.

I agree with you, there is an attitude situation that probable reflect the thinking of the principal's of the company's.

Many companies have the same attitude Hitler had, toe the line or die (get fired). Personally I would never want to work for a company with that attitude; however, like the Vichy French in World War II, many people forego their principals just to get a paycheck.

Coming back to the software, the junkyard of history is full of good ideas applied badly.

Jimmy

jimmys · Mar 14, 2010

tracey.peterson said:
I hate to be "that dude" but I have a couple of comments here.

First off, backups for the win. Basically what you're asking here is for them to provide backup service for you. In a situation where you're paying several thousand dollars for a product, not backing up is like not paying insurance on your vehicle.

Second, this isn't all that different from a great many other situations. If, for example, you have a movie that you leave out in the sun, would you expect the manufacturer to send you a download link to get it again? How about if you drop your ipod in the sink and lose all the music? Have a hot new video game that you accidentally delete the install folder for? Windows installation got hosed and you need a new installation disk? Again, backups are your friend. Whether you think a provider of intellectual property *should* provide copies or not, often times they won't, and it's on you to make sure your investments are safe after purchase.

Third, the idea that "not keeping old software" is shocking is a rather ludicrous one. Not only will you find this with Wasatch, but also with Onyx, Roland's Versaworks, Adobe's software, etc. That's not to say "if everybody does it it's ok" but rather to point out that keeping old software available for download is rather silly. The idea is to improve your software over time, not hold on to older versions that don't have the improvements of later versions. Even open source software will only keep old versions around for so long after new versions are released. In the case of a RIP company, they give you free access to all versions of their software for the life of your service contract. Beyond that time, if you don't renew your contract, you are saying "I no longer need your services, I'm good to go on my own." Next time back up before you tell your service folks to pound sand, just to beat this horse one more time.

Fourth, the idea that all RIP companies base profitable revenue on waiting in the shadows like vultures for your hard disk to crash is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Or do you think RIP companies are in cahoots with hard disk manufacturers in a clever plot to milk not only $300 for months of renewed service, but a double whammy of the cost of a new hard disk? Maybe your own IT staff is in on it (who, at this point, really should know how to copy an installation disk to a hard drive that's NOT about to explode by now, even if only by reading my post).

And last, to attribute "haughtiness" or "arrogance" to their various support members (some of whom provide excellent and on-point advice and help on forums such as this one in their own free time) from an e-mail you received from a sales rep simply because you don't agree with their business policies rather stinks like sour grapes. These guys are there to help you, and given the rather rare expertise you can get from them, it's not unreasonable to expect to pay $300 for access for several months.

The reason a RIP manufacturer exists is to make sure you have access to the best product and brightest technicians that a RIP company can provide. That's how they stand out, and how they become profitable. In the RIP industry, this means support contracts. Rather than complain about it, take advantage of it. Get the latest software, call their support, and become a better printer.

And no, I'm not a Wasatch employee, just strongly opinionated, and have ALWAYS been taken care of by Wasatch and Onyx both. I find the value of a service contract FAR outweighs the cost to renew it every 6 months - especially considering the ink to run cleanings on my machines costs more than reliable, knowledgeable service for my software.

Blast away, if you like.

Have a great life!

Bly · Mar 14, 2010

jimmys said:
Read the post(s) Luke, er, I mean Bly!

And now you're coming across as an ass.
I read your post.
Where do you tell us why you didn't back up this important production software?

andy · Mar 14, 2010

tracey.peterson said:
I hate to be "that dude" but I have a couple of comments here.

First off, backups for the win. Basically what you're asking here is for them to provide backup service for you. In a situation where you're paying several thousand dollars for a product, not backing up is like not paying insurance on your vehicle.

Second, this isn't all that different from a great many other situations. If, for example, you have a movie that you leave out in the sun, would you expect the manufacturer to send you a download link to get it again? How about if you drop your ipod in the sink and lose all the music? Have a hot new video game that you accidentally delete the install folder for? Windows installation got hosed and you need a new installation disk? Again, backups are your friend. Whether you think a provider of intellectual property *should* provide copies or not, often times they won't, and it's on you to make sure your investments are safe after purchase.

Third, the idea that "not keeping old software" is shocking is a rather ludicrous one. Not only will you find this with Wasatch, but also with Onyx, Roland's Versaworks, Adobe's software, etc. That's not to say "if everybody does it it's ok" but rather to point out that keeping old software available for download is rather silly. The idea is to improve your software over time, not hold on to older versions that don't have the improvements of later versions. Even open source software will only keep old versions around for so long after new versions are released. In the case of a RIP company, they give you free access to all versions of their software for the life of your service contract. Beyond that time, if you don't renew your contract, you are saying "I no longer need your services, I'm good to go on my own." Next time back up before you tell your service folks to pound sand, just to beat this horse one more time.

Fourth, the idea that all RIP companies base profitable revenue on waiting in the shadows like vultures for your hard disk to crash is the dumbest thing I've ever heard. Or do you think RIP companies are in cahoots with hard disk manufacturers in a clever plot to milk not only $300 for months of renewed service, but a double whammy of the cost of a new hard disk? Maybe your own IT staff is in on it (who, at this point, really should know how to copy an installation disk to a hard drive that's NOT about to explode by now, even if only by reading my post).

And last, to attribute "haughtiness" or "arrogance" to their various support members (some of whom provide excellent and on-point advice and help on forums such as this one in their own free time) from an e-mail you received from a sales rep simply because you don't agree with their business policies rather stinks like sour grapes. These guys are there to help you, and given the rather rare expertise you can get from them, it's not unreasonable to expect to pay $300 for access for several months.

The reason a RIP manufacturer exists is to make sure you have access to the best product and brightest technicians that a RIP company can provide. That's how they stand out, and how they become profitable. In the RIP industry, this means support contracts. Rather than complain about it, take advantage of it. Get the latest software, call their support, and become a better printer.

And no, I'm not a Wasatch employee, just strongly opinionated, and have ALWAYS been taken care of by Wasatch and Onyx both. I find the value of a service contract FAR outweighs the cost to renew it every 6 months - especially considering the ink to run cleanings on my machines costs more than reliable, knowledgeable service for my software.

Blast away, if you like.

If I lose my car key I expect to be able to pay a small fee to the dealer so they can retrieve the code information from their database allowing me to get a new set of keys made. Hell, I'd expect the dealer to charge me a small fee to make a new set of keys.

Obviously you'd be happy to accept the finger from your local car dealer and would meekly pony up for a brand new "upgraded" car... even though there is nothing wrong with the old one apart from a missing key.

Old software can be easily supplied IF the manufacturer is in the mood to be helpful.... Wasatch built version 6.whatever using the code from build version 6.0.... they've added a few "upgrades" but the bulk of the code will have evolved from build version 1.0. If you are building upon code from previous versions you HAVE to have a copy of the older version to start with... Wasatch have the code the OP needs but don't want to co-operate.

Next time Wasatch bleat on about how "piracy is killing the industry" they may want to reflect on the OP's experience.... it should tell them everything they want to know.

jimmys · Mar 16, 2010

Bly said:
And now you're coming across as an ass.
I read your post.
Where do you tell us why you didn't back up this important production software?

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oNotPromoteQF/> <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther> <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian> <w:LidThemeComplexScript>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplexScript> <w:Compatibility> <w:BreakWrappedTables/> <w:SnapToGridInCell/> <w:WrapTextWithPunct/> <w:UseAsianBreakRules/> <w

ontGrowAutofit/> <w:SplitPgBreakAndParaMark/> <w:EnableOpenTypeKerning/> <w

ontFlipMirrorIndents/> <w:OverrideTableStyleHps/> </w:Compatibility> <m:mathPr> <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/> <m:brkBin m:val="before"/> <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/> <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/> <m:dispDef/> <m:lMargin m:val="0"/> <m:rMargin m:val="0"/> <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/> <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/> <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/> <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/> </m:mathPr></w:WordDocument> </xml><![endif]--><style>  </style> [FONT=&quot]You are right. I apologize to you!<o

></o

>[/FONT]

lknmedia · Mar 16, 2010

Interesting thread ... I hope the Wasatch people are watching it ..

We are looking to upgrade from Rasterlink right now ... It's between Onyx and Wasatch ... I have to say that Wasatch WAS our leading choice, but after reading this post, we may have been tipped towards Onyx.

Are you reading this Wasatch?

Rooster · Mar 16, 2010

I purchased my Softrip about two years ago. I spoke with sales reps and right down the engineers and programmers to confirm that I could use a custom inkset (CMYKLcLmOG) in my JV33. I was told it could and when it arrived it could not.

Wasatch called me a liar when I asked why the feature I based my purchasing decision on wasn't available after I had been told it was. This was the only time I've ever called them for support on their product. I did not have written confirmation of this as it was expressed verbally during a conversation with someone there. If you're asking them for anything out of the ordinary MAKE SURE YOU GET THEIR RESPONSE IN WRITING.

At this point I'm less than impressed with the customer service and am unwilling to part with the upgrade fees they charge to get features I would have expected to see in a full featured rip. Since I bought mine they have released two upgrades since I've been out of contract. Black point compensation, which I had assumed was already a feature of the RIP as it had been in all my other RIP software. Then there's the flexcut addition to the (summa) cut option package. Something that was already part of the summa cutter but wasn't supported by the RIP when it was released. Of course I was never informed that I was getting a reduced feature set for my cutter when I purchased their RIP.

So now since my upgrade cost is so high to get these features and the way they have treated me on the phone has caused me to just deal with these deficiencies and look elsewhere in the future. Overall I can make this rip work fine, but it's not the best rip I've used. I've seen better color management features and screening with more user options in older rips that I've used for other devices. Unfortunately that manufacturer didn't support mimaki at the time.

So yeah..... uhm buyer beware.

CES020 · Mar 16, 2010

lknmedia said:
I have to say that Wasatch WAS our leading choice, but after reading this post, we may have been tipped towards Onyx.

Are you reading this Wasatch?

And they you go. The possible loss of one sale. That's over $3,500 in revenue possibly lost.

$50 could have stopped all of this. That's one possible loss that's posted, how many losses or potential losses are out there that aren't taking the time to post. 2 more? So we're $10,000 in the red now over $50? 10 more? $40,000 in the red over $50?

I thank God every day that I don't run my business with that sort of logic.

Simply amazing to me. I don't have a printer, don't need a RIP, but when I do get one, and that day will come, I know where I'm not going for a RIP.

Dice · Mar 16, 2010

My Experience with softrip was rather bleh as well. I evaluated all of the rips. Wasatch was the only one that refused to give me a trial version at first. They said that they NEVER do that. After I pressed they finally gave me a link to their FTP for a Unregistered version.

After playing with it for a few days, I deemed it a baby rip. I remember not being able to find mimaki profiles for it and it didn't have the ability to create them. They said they were working on it. That pretty much killed it right there for me.

I remember it having some cool features and looked like it could be a real player in the future but right now it looks like they have much to improve.

Dice · Mar 16, 2010

Ohh and Wasstch makes RasterLink for Mimaki.

tracey.peterson · Mar 16, 2010

jimmys said:
I started in graphic when I bought my first Apple II (64k of RAM, which I later upgraded to 128K of Ram, therefore converting it to an Apple IIe (for enhanced), and I still have copies of the shit I produced back then.

So let us believe Wasatch when they say they don't keep (live) copies of older software. How come they did not back it up?

I didn't mean to have this become such a big deal. I do sympathize with your situation, and I hope you resolve it, from one print guy to another.

I did want to point out this quote though - it's not about the fact they lost old software, or that they don't keep it (and I'd be surprised if old stuff wasn't around for testing purposes). The point is it would be counterproductive to continue distributing it.

With regard to software updates, it's important to remember not only new features and buttons get put in, but optimizations, support for new devices, bug fixes, etc are also released. Why would a company keep around hundreds of revisions of software they know they have improved upon for distribution to customers?

To me it's clear the disagreement should be about needing service for a link to the current software release, and not about attempting to get a copy of old software. If you believe a link should be provided, I can accept that, but it makes no sense (to me) for a software company to give you links to old stuff.

Also - a minor nitpick (and clarification on something I said previously) - I do believe I could get any of my Apple DRM-ridden songs from their store. However, I doubt I'd get a link to songs I put there myself - I'd have to RIP them from CDs again, etc (I consider them backups =). Frankly, if Apple DID provide a link, I'd be scared to know where they got the info on my playlists, and would probably have to go hunting for a stealth-webcam in my bedroom.

tracey.peterson · Mar 16, 2010

andy said:
If I lose my car key I expect to be able to pay a small fee to the dealer so they can retrieve the code information from their database allowing me to get a new set of keys made. Hell, I'd expect the dealer to charge me a small fee to make a new set of keys.

Obviously you'd be happy to accept the finger from your local car dealer and would meekly pony up for a brand new "upgraded" car... even though there is nothing wrong with the old one apart from a missing key.

I've never thought this a good analogy.

For instance, if an auto manufacturer supplies new keys to you, and you find your old keys laying about, you didn't just auto-magically get yourself a brand new car. I believe if there WAS a risk of this, getting keys from the manufacturer wouldn't be so trivial.

I think the analogy does work a little better to compare the car keys to a copy of the software, not the hardware protection key, but that can get confusing.

Either way, paying the service contract, to me, seems very similar for paying the fee to have the dealer make a new set of keys - except after you've done so, you now have a period of time you can lose them over and over and over and be covered.

Also, I'd expect making my own copy of my car keys at the local hardware store to be an order of magnitude cheaper than going to the dealer (who, incidentally, is currently fixing my truck and making me a poor, poor man).

Caveat Emptor: (Thinking of buy Wasatch Softrip?)

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