CE6000 problem reading Registration Marks

[grafigo]

Hi to all,

have a slight problem with my 2 weeks old Graphtec CE6000-120AMO.

Prior to buying this cutter I was working with Summa D60R (24 inch). Mainly printed decals, small size, like 2x1 inch or even smaller. I printed on white vinyl, yellow, orange, silver, laminated or not and Summa never asked a single question. It would just read the marks and cut, precisely, every single time. No matter if the print is skewed, no matter if the marks are just 1/5 inch of the edges of the vinyl, no matter if the pinch rollers are going over the marks... Nothing, it would just read the marks and cut. Period.

Now, with the Graphtec, i just can't do that sort of thing. It has trouble reading on yellow, orange, silver vinyl. It tries, then just go "mark scan error". Sometimes it manages after 4-5-6 tries to read marks and cut perfectly. Next time it reads the marks but on the display i see "off scale" and it cut wrong by a 1/10 inch or similar. I am having trouble even with the white vinyl, not so much, but i do have it.

Problem is probably in my way of preparing files, rather then in machine. I am a bit of cheapskate and like to use all width of the vinyl. I'm using type 2 marks, working in Cdraw X6, exporting to CM3. My marks range is from 7mm to 10mm (.28" to .4"), thickness of the marks is 0.5mm to 0.7mm (.02" to .028"), margin is "relative to cut job" and 10mm to 15mm (.4" to .6").

Could someone explain to me how do you guys (and girls) prepare your files so you are 100% sure it would read your marks and cut it precisely.

 

[GAC05]

I also have a ce6000 and the arms sensor does seem a little error prone.
I think you have the right idea about the setup.
I leave the size sliders for marks all the way to the right in CM3 and set the distance to .8 or more away from the printed graphics.
I keep the rollers outside of the marks.
To make sure the print is loaded straight I line up the bottom two registration marks with the cutting groove, pressing in with my thumbnails to so I can tell they are laying right at the edge of the groove.
With lam I try to either keep the marks completely covered or uncovered with the edge of the lam away from the path the sensor will scan when it looks for the marks.
At the start I set the carriage so the blade holder is right in the corner made by the registration mark.
Seems to work most times.

In chapter 5 of the users guide there is a procedure to set the sensing level of the mark scanner. There is an automatic and manual procedure to change the level.
I have not adjusted mine but you might want to give it a try.

Mine does ok but it is not overwhelmingly accurate on most jobs, but then again it did not cost as much as a Summa....

wayne k
guam usa

 

[grafigo]

Thanks for the quick reply.

Sooo, size slider to the right, and distance .8" from the print. And you need to leave aprox. the same .8" to the edge of the material, probably? It's a big chunk of the material that is waisted...

I do line up the material the same way like you do.

Do you have any experience with the print+cut on the materials that are colored, like yellow, silver...?

 

[Dennis422]

Budi siguran da ti se svetlo ne odbija od vinila i da ti to ne smeta pri skeniranju. Ja sam imao slicne probleme sa CE5000. Morao sam da imam svetlo samo iznad printera na nekim materijalima. Sve sa strane bi mu smetalo zbog odsjaja. Pozdrav Valjevu!

Translation:
Sometimes I had issues with light reflection on my CE5000. I had to make sure that the light is only above the cutter to prevent the reflection.
Since I sold CE5000 and bought FC8600, I do not have those problems.
Also, make sure that the print is lined up perfectly. I know that Graphtec says that they have skew correction in their software, but I do not think that works.
On FC8600, it will not finish scanning unless it is perfectly squared up.

 

[GAC05]

Very little experience running anything other than printed white, a little silver & yellow - seemed to go ok the few times I needed to do it.
Contours were simple rectangles with rounded corners.
Maybe try running the scan level up pretty high for the silver-yellow and then bring it back down for regular prints on white.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[grafigo]

Pozdrav i tebi Denise

I don't have direct light above the machine, but i will move it to a different location just to try this tip.

Generaly speaking, does CE6000 or FC8000/8600 marks take up a lot of space on the vinyl? I'm constantly thinking about Summa, which has marks that are square and the size is just 3x3mm (.12" x .12").

In this short time (2 weeks) I have an impression that Graphtec is a really great cutting machine but not so much print+cut machine. It's a bit complicated, with too many options regarding positioning and sizing of the marks. And + there is this tricky reading of that same marks.

I soooo want to like this machine and to make it work like it's supossed to. But if it's not anything else bar great for small printed decals, i will have to return it and go to the Summa dealer.

 

[Dennis422]

I like mine. After you get all the tricks down, it will work.
Yes, it waste a bit more material than Summa because of the need for more room for marks.
Summa is all around better machine, but it costs a lot more than Graphtec. I can imagine what those "gulikoze" are charging over there

I had a few days of hair pulling with my Graphtec, but after I upgraded to the latest Firmware and after I have reset the machine, now it cuts like a champ.
Make sure you are running the latest firmware.
http://www.graphtecamerica.com/graphtec-america-support-downloads-cutting-plotters-ce6000-series

Good luck.
Srecno

 

[grafigo]

:ROFLMAO: @ "gulikoze"

DKGraphics, you will have to find appropriate term to translate this word in english.

Machine is brand new, from the box, so the firmware is up to date. Must call my service guy and see if there is a slight chance to upgrade it to 8600 fw, as he said that this 2 cutters are almost the same, the fw is what makes the bigest difference. Don't know if the sensor is the same...?

Regarding prices, both machines are listed in the region of 3500 - 3600$. With little bit of talk I was able to get it down to 3000$. Remember, we are talking Graphtec CE6000-120 and Summa D120R. These are the prices without taxes, which are refundable.

The price is not the issue here, but terms for buying and servicing, and especially my long term cooperation with the Co which sells the Graphtec is what leaned me towards the CE6000.

Yesterday, I tried to print on flex material (for t-shirts), and made some changes to the way i make marks for the Graphtec. I upped the size of the marks a bit (10mm) and left a bit of room on both sides for the pinch rollers. It managed to read the marks fairly easily, but every times it writes on the display "Off scale". How ever the cut was prety much accurate.

 

[grafigo]

Also, i have tried it with Type 1 marks on yellow vinyl and it was able to read the marks time after time. I was like

Marks were very small (7mm) and very close to the edge of the material.

This sticker is 1.25"x1" in size. Do you find this margin of error acceptable on your Graphtec?

 

[Dennis422]

OK. It looks like type 2 marks worked for you.
Also, try sending them with a mark in between, print it with 6 marks instead only the corner 4.
That way the cutter can adjust on the longer prints.

$3K is not bad price for a 120cm cutter. Especially the Graphtec. I believe that here is more $ than that.

Which vinyl you are printing on? Brand?
If the vinyl is a regular calendered cut vinyl, the heat from the printer can affect the length (shrink or expand it) and that could be your issue.

I have HP L25500 printer and until I changed the heal (No a lot lower) and number of passes, I had a similar issue. It got better after that, but it is a dead on since I upgraded the Firmware.

Also, it really does not matter that the printer is brand new as far as the firmware. You do not know how long it sat at the seller or in a warehouse. When you start the cutter, it should tell you right away what is the firmware version. Look at the screen while it is starting up. Then compare that version to the latest version on the link I sent you.

Good luck
Sretno

 

[grafigo]

I think that your advice about the light source may have some logic. Some test i did were conducted under artificial light (neon light in the shop), and they were bad.

This morning, with more natural light coming to Graphtec, i did couple of tests and cutter managed to read every single mark. Those pictures are from this morning.

Regarding the type of vinyl, colored vinyl is calendered Oracal 641 series. I'm printing on a Roland VersaArt RS-640 so don't think that temperature is in play too much.

Standard printing vinyl is Orafol 3164G (100 microns), and other Orafol types of vinyl.

DKGrafix, how does 8600 compare to lesser Graphtec models regarding precision? What color is laser, white or red? And, what do you think about those decals from my pictures. Is something like that acceptable to you clients? To me it's not, but i'm always chasing perfection...

 

[Dennis422]

First off, those yellow decals, I would not give that to my customer.

As far as the 8600 light, not sure, I believe it is red.
I did not see the "head" on the CE6000, but my FC8600 head is a lot lower to the material than the head on the CE5000. That blocks off some reflection too.

Did you check the Firmware? (Believe me, I thought that firmware has nothing to do with it, since upgraded, no issues)

 

[grafigo]

Firmware Ver. 2.00 STD what ever that STD stands for. :ROFLMAO:

Yellow decals are brought to me, including design and the background color the client want it to be. It is for some natural ingridients parfums sold in the Greece. Personaly, I don't like them, but if the customer is happy...


What is your way of making reg. marks? Do you have some standard procedure or it depends on the size of the decals, the lenght of the print, maybe material...?

 

[Dennis422]

It mostly the length of the printed piece.
Even on the 60-70 cm long print, I will put 6 reg marks. Always type 2 (Facing the print not like letter L, so that make a like corner of the printed area)
When I print full size wall decals (160-180 cm long) i will do 8 marks. I would rather cutter taking longer to scan that to throw away the print.
Last 1.5-2 months since the firmware upgrade it cuts dead on and it scans from the first try. I just make sure it is perfectly straight in the cutter.
Cuts good on cast and cheap material.

It looks like you are up-to-date with firmware. Try emailing Graphtec and see what they say.

 

[grafigo]

What size and thicknes are your marks? Distance from the print and from the edge of the material?

Hope that I am not bothering you, just trying to figure out difference between my marks and yours.

Couple of print+cut jobs done today and I'm getting better every time.

 

[Dennis422]

What size and thicknes are your marks? Distance from the print and from the edge of the material?

Hope that I am not bothering you, just trying to figure out difference between my marks and yours.

Couple of print+cut jobs done today and I'm getting better every time.

will make a screen caption late today and post it here.
It will be in inches

No bother at all.

Kome da pomognem ako necu nekom od tamo. Moji su i dalje u Aleksincu kod Nisa. Bio sam tamo proslog leta, nadam se ponovo za godinu ili dve.
Pozdrav

 

[Dennis422]

This is what I got.
Hope it helps.

 

[grafigo]

I see where my problem probably lies... Both, you DKGrafix and GAC05 are making reg. marks as big as they can be. On the other hand I'm trying to make them as little as possible so I can have more space for the decals to be printed.

I'll try to edit my work method and see if it gives better results.

 

[GAC05]

One last thing that might help.
Your ganged sheets do not look that big but what I do on some ganged jobs that are fairly large with complex contours is:
Set the file up to print n cut with the registration marks.
Send the print file to the rip.
Print and lam then load into the cutter
Select half of my ganged cut paths on end farthest from the origin & change them to a new layer.
In Cutting master turn off the new layer.
Set the option for the cutter head to "return to origin"
Let the machine cut the first half of the decals.
Move the cutting head back close to the registration mark and resend the job with already cut layer off and the second layer turned back on.
The cutter will rescan the marks and cut the second half.
Takes a little extra time to rescan but it does seem to help keep things on track when I am running multi copies of the same decal on thick, laminated or reflective material.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[grafigo]

Nice tip Wayne, thanks.

This morning it's time for a new message from cutter.

"Moving Destination is out of area"

New files printed with plenty of room from all sides. Biger, thicker marks. It reads 3 marks, then just passes by mark No. 4 and goes to the start position. After several attempts I managed to make it right. How you ask?

If I put the material in the cutter and click on option 1 (Roll 1 - front edge) at the end I get that message.
If I click option 2 (Roll 2 - Current position) it reads the mark and does what it's supposed to do.

Weird?