CET, Gerber, Roland Flatbed Question

[artbot]

sorry. just a few comments that sounded pretty green to the flatbed workflow. glad to hear that you are doing well.

 

[Correct Color]

I wouldn't give a customer 360 DPI, that is pretty poor quality. My Roland VP-540i does 1440.

Yeah I need a true flatbed, I hear it's best to get a gantry system.

First thing to note is that resolution itself isn't really all that much of an indicator of "quality."

You have to consider resolution, dot size, and multi-dot capability to make an accurate determination of quality capabilties of any inkjet printer. So just to say you "need" 1440x 1440 on a flatbed because your Roland prints 1440x1440 isn't really valid.

It's also not really valid to say you "need" a gantry machine. If it was me in your position, I'd probably lean in that direction, but that's mainly because the design of the HP machines in this price range are getting a little long in the tooth, and it shows. Basically in cure banding, and in lawnmower banding, but also in the fact that they're one -- fairly large -- dot size printers and because of that at lower resolutions they can't put down enough ink to get anywhere near their full gamut capability.

The Gerber Cat, by the way, is garbage. Stay well clear of it. If someone will give you one, don't take it.

As mentioned, they have had upheavals at CET, so I'd be leery of them, plus, their move to Ricoh gen 6 heads and the ink they use for them is a major step backwards. Their Ricoh gen 5 machine comparably profiled delivers much larger gamut and much richer blacks, and overall much better prints.

Right now the best quality machine on the market is still the Oce/Fuji. Flora is worth a look as well, and I've heard good things about Vanguard, but I have yet to see one of the machines.

Good luck.

 

[bjt140]

First thing to note is that resolution itself isn't really all that much of an indicator of "quality."

You have to consider resolution, dot size, and multi-dot capability to make an accurate determination of quality capabilties of any inkjet printer. So just to say you "need" 1440x 1440 on a flatbed because your Roland prints 1440x1440 isn't really valid.

It's also not really valid to say you "need" a gantry machine. If it was me in your position, I'd probably lean in that direction, but that's mainly because the design of the HP machines in this price range are getting a little long in the tooth, and it shows. Basically in cure banding, and in lawnmower banding, but also in the fact that they're one -- fairly large -- dot size printers and because of that at lower resolutions they can't put down enough ink to get anywhere near their full gamut capability.

The Gerber Cat, by the way, is garbage. Stay well clear of it. If someone will give you one, don't take it.

As mentioned, they have had upheavals at CET, so I'd be leery of them, plus, their move to Ricoh gen 6 heads and the ink they use for them is a major step backwards. Their Ricoh gen 5 machine comparably profiled delivers much larger gamut and much richer blacks, and overall much better prints.

Right now the best quality machine on the market is still the Oce/Fuji. Flora is worth a look as well, and I've heard good things about Vanguard, but I have yet to see one of the machines.

Good luck.

since you covered the Ricoh heads, I was curious where the Epson dx5 heads land in your experience.

Thanks!

 

[Dionysus]

CET

The CET and flora are different animals, similar but different. Print files using 600X900 on CET youll find yourself good.
I had a guy that bought a flora and told me he was having problems with it, sure enough it went down while I was on site. (not my printer)
CET is a simple printer with little issues, just easy stuff, belt walk, drop out, interference, but its rock solid.

I wouldn't go flora, but it will be interesting to see what happens under CET new program.

new CET's rock once dialed in.

 

[ams]

What about used and refurb machine choices? I know everyone is cheering for the new models, but what is a good entry level flatbed 4' X 8' or 5' X 10' in used?

 

[artbot]

hmmm.... tricky. bang for the buck winner right now is the $16,500 dual dx5 R180

[video=youtube;P5bwNy7ok04]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5bwNy7ok04[/video]

also comes in a ricoh GS2200 for not much more

[video=youtube;Cn8vbrf9TZ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn8vbrf9TZ8[/video]

 

[Dionysus]

What about used and refurb machine choices? I know everyone is cheering for the new models, but what is a good entry level flatbed 4' X 8' or 5' X 10' in used?

Id take a 4X8 CET flatbed. Having installed about 6 now and few issues about them, they look good and the speed is in the $$$/more heads faster speed if you need it. Have a client using it everyday in NYC with white, Put it in there 3 years ago, had 1 service call for something stupid. Also had a problem client that had to fix his power. Cant run CET under 225 Volts.

 

[Correct Color]

What about used and refurb machine choices? I know everyone is cheering for the new models, but what is a good entry level flatbed 4' X 8' or 5' X 10' in used

Used machines are cheap, and some of them are remarkably well-made. The old Gandi Jetis could be used for tanks. And you can get them for well under 20 grand.

But you started off saying you wanted quality, and to print images visually similar to a Roland 540 printing at 1440x1440.

The main difference between newer machines and older generation machines is dot size. Dots size on the older machines tends to be huge. Given what you seem to be looking for, none of the older machines will fill the bill.

 

[ams]

hmmm.... tricky. bang for the buck winner right now is the $16,500 dual dx5 R180

[video=youtube;P5bwNy7ok04]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5bwNy7ok04[/video]

also comes in a ricoh GS2200 for not much more

[video=youtube;Cn8vbrf9TZ8]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cn8vbrf9TZ8[/video]

Problem with the hybrids are you generally can't use any heavy substrates such as .125 aluminum or 1/2" wood.

 

[davecich]

CET, AOjet, and Flora are all the same printer.

ARTBOT, not even close to true.....

 

[davecich]

On the subject of flatbeds. Am I the only one that finds it odd that the "creator" of CET has abandoned CET and started Vanguard? Seems he couldn't say enough good things about CET. Next thing he's on here saying he's started/with Vanguard.

Just sayin...

RJ, my partner and I had a disagreement about how to treat customers and employees. It happens in business partnerships. I started Vanguard so we could continue what I started at CET. At this point, all the key employees have moved from CET to Vanguard. I post on here so that all the people who trusted me while I was at CET Color know that we are following through on the commitments we made, and I will continue to support the CET machines, so they get the complete payback on their machine.

The last two years before I left CET, we were the #1 true flatbed in the USA at close to 200 printers a year. The reason Vanguard is successful, and CET used to be successful is based on the philosophy of always placing the customer first while delivering an outstanding product. No exceptions.

I can be reached at 404-915-7524 if you want to discuss why I left further.

 

[davecich]

So on the topic of flatbed printers, this has been brought up many times.

I'd like to know your guys experience with each if you own any of these. I am leaning towards getting a CET color flatbed, but nearly impossible to find a used or demo model. I know nothing about CET.
I was considering a Gerber IonX or Gerber CAT, I know the CAT used to be top of the line back in the day and I know that Gerber is no longer doing much with flatbeds but I asked if they still service them and they said yes.
For Roland, I really wanted the new LEJ-640FT true flatbed. However I've seen some people complain about vertical banding with no way of fixing it, however I've seen other people say that they have never had any
banding issues with it. Also impossible to find used or demo models.

So I am curious about the experiences of each them if you own one or used to have one. Thanks

AMS, call me at 404-915-7524 tomorrow. I have a 5x10 CET machine I am taking in on trade. I also have quite a few 4x8's.

Dave Cich
404-915-7524

 

[davecich]

We have a CET 250H. Took nearly a year and multiple techs out here to get it running "right". It doesn't print nearly the speed they advertise or we were told when we were sold the machine.
Every environmental factor will mess with your printer. The tech specs say 40-60% humidity, try 55+ constantly, any less and the heads plug up mid print and you get drop out. Thinking it will print at a decent speed? forget it. Techs set the machine up for a .5 pass when they set it up and after tons of drop out issues we were told we are running it too fast and we need to slow it down to .33 screen (the slowest option of the 4 print speeds - .33, .50, .75, 1.0).
We were told the more we run it the better, but on long runs (8-12 hours of non stop run) we were having to stop every 35/45 min to clean the print heads and get all the nozzles firing again.
We are also not a fan of the belt drive system, if it wasn't for the amount of banners we run we would be kicking ourselves for getting the hybrid. Running 4x8 sheets of coro 2 sided with any kind of registration you can forget about it... i cut sheets in half and run them that way to get them close.
The "consumables" that we were told about ever person we talked with had a different story for replacement times/ frequency. After we got the machine installed those times all got cut in half and replacing 12+ filters multiple times a year at hundreds of dollars per filter adds up a lot compared to what we were told.

If we had it all to do over again, the owner here would spend the extra cash and get a better known brand like mimaki or roland and get the true flatbed.
Add on top that the supplier that sold us the CET now no longer supports it and we are in a scramble to find a new supplier for inks and other "consumables"

All in all, depending what your doing, make sure you go with a brand that you can trust... go run the printers, get your hands on all 3, and talk to people who have owned them a while, not sales people. Talk to the production guys who run the printers every day and get the down and dirty on what the printers really are and what they really can do.

Good luck

execuprint, you do not need to change your filters that often, nor run at the speeds you are suggesting. I don't know which dealer you bought from, or if you bought before or after I left. I can probably give you a 100% refund toward a Vanguard true 4x8 flatbed.

Call me when you have a moment please.

Dave Cich
404-915-7524

 

[davecich]

A couple final notes:

Mike, thanks for the mention. I need to get you to Atlanta, but I am guessing you will be writing profiles on a machine I sold shortly. The CET machines still use the gen 5 head. The gen 6 will be shown at Drupa for the first time next week. It will be given to OEMs to play with after, and will be commercialized late summer.

Artbot, you should come to the Shanghai show with me. There are 100's of companies in China building printers like that. Most are in business for a year or two. You need to understand to sell and support a printer like that in the USA you need a head license from Epson or Ricoh, which is virtually impossible to get. My understanding is there were a few cease and desists delivered at the ISA sign show. You can always go and buy one and import it yourself, but most have found that it is impossible to run a cheap machine with no parts or support, and then out of business. A dx5 license is impossible to get, and Epson does not appreciate the way their patents are stollen in China.

that said, I bet you could make it work based on your skill set. Most others couldn't, or wouldn't want to own a printer that is down more than it is up. Hard to make money that way.

 

[bjt140]

A couple final notes:

Mike, thanks for the mention. I need to get you to Atlanta, but I am guessing you will be writing profiles on a machine I sold shortly. The CET machines still use the gen 5 head. The gen 6 will be shown at Drupa for the first time next week. It will be given to OEMs to play with after, and will be commercialized late summer.

Artbot, you should come to the Shanghai show with me. There are 100's of companies in China building printers like that. Most are in business for a year or two. You need to understand to sell and support a printer like that in the USA you need a head license from Epson or Ricoh, which is virtually impossible to get. My understanding is there were a few cease and desists delivered at the ISA sign show. You can always go and buy one and import it yourself, but most have found that it is impossible to run a cheap machine with no parts or support, and then out of business. A dx5 license is impossible to get, and Epson does not appreciate the way their patents are stollen in China.

that said, I bet you could make it work based on your skill set. Most others couldn't, or wouldn't want to own a printer that is down more than it is up. Hard to make money that way.

How could you find out or tell if the company has the license? I never even knew you couldn't build a machine using a certain head without the rights to do so.

 

[artbot]

David,

I noticed that many of these advertised now have the Ricoh GH 2200. Perhaps this will still be a stumbling block. Are you familiar with this head? Seems to be directed at a competitor to Epson.

 

[davecich]

David,

I noticed that many of these advertised now have the Ricoh GH 2200. Perhaps this will still be a stumbling block. Are you familiar with this head? Seems to be directed at a competitor to Epson.

I am Artbot. It is an inexpensive head made by Ricoh for that purpose. It was commercialized last summer. It is an inexpensive head made for aqueous and solvent ink only, and is constructed out of plastic and silicon only (no metal). It is not supported for UV by Ricoh. It also does not have a heater in it.

Great head, but limited uses. Primarily solvent/fabric printers. In China, if they do not have a license, they buy 100.00 desktops and harvest the heads. The lack of a court system allows them the ability.

Dave

 

[artbot]

To me, as for DX5 heads, Epson is to blame, they are practicing price gouging whenever possible. I once took apart an Epson 1000 head unit. Under the Epson head rank sticker, I found a Roland head rank sticker, then under that Roland sticker a Mimaki head rank sticker. The "OEM commercial" vs. "home" head is a fallacy to simply demand and additional $1000 retail for a desktop head.

As for the GH head, it looks promising. $400 a channel, no heating is just one more thing that won't degrade over time. ...then inside of an Epson head is some kind of extremely brittle laminated metal. The GH could be a lot more durable.

 

[brycesteiner]

hmmm.... tricky. bang for the buck winner right now is the $16,500 dual dx5 R180

[video=youtube;P5bwNy7ok04]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P5bwNy7ok04[/video]

You wouldn't happen to know how to get support in the US for this machine would you? I received one this year and we cannot get it to connect to the computer correctly.

I would love to find a company that supports this in the US.

thanks,
Bryce

 

[artbot]

there's a dealer in Los Angeles. forget the name. one option may be contacting Repro Sales in the UK. they sell this model and being in "repair" as well, they should be able to get a tech on the line/skype/splashtop (best) and get things going.

http://repro-sales.com/index.php?route=information/contact