Need Help Client requesting files

[visual800]

this post is different than most posts about clients wanting their logo. In that situation send them their logo. BUT this post is about a sign guy redoing their art so he can produce signage in that situation I would NOT send them anything. We live in an age where a customer thinks a gif or jpeg is production ready art, in that case its easier for me sometimes to recreate that so I can use it. THOSE files are mine and will not be shared especially to another sign guy that may need them to reproduce signs for client I use to service, let him recreate his own files, not my issue.

So when the chick that is no longer needing your services asks for art files send her or him the same gif or jpeg they sent you to begin with. IF they need your production files then I would charge them for my time on that

 

[Gino]

I think I see the pattern here, suddenly.

Sounds like no one is charging for their time to begin with. When someone comes to you and says, I need a sign, don't any of you figure in how long it will take to re-create files and turn them into something you can use and add that to the cost of making a sign or whatever they are buying ?? It's part of the cost. So evidently, you are gypping yourself right from the start, in order to make a sale. Isn't that a form of racing to the bottom ??

Again, I thought you were telling people up front what all goes into the making of a sign.

1. Substrates
2. Viny
3. Paint
4. Labor
5. Miscellaneous
6. Overhead
7. Loss factors

And one of the first things I itemize is computer time. That includes the buying of fonts, manipulating their nephews art files, logo re-creation, revisions, e-mailing back & forth and the biggie obtaining permits and digging rights.

 

[Allensign]

We recently had a client where a new advertising person came on board and now doesn't want to work with us. They had some bigger jobs and we sort've understood but then we saw what the new company had done and we could've done it in our sleep.

So I get this all sweet email "Hope all is well - can you send us some files." I already charged her for some of them but not enough I'm sure.

I think the files would be going to the new sign vendor so we're just going to ignore the request.

Or, do I reply and say "We'd love to help you as long as you will place an other. Please send a PO" or something like that?

Unfortunately if you charged them for the files they belong to them. That is why I do not charge for file conversion or that kind os stuff so when I get those request I can politely say that I understand this may be your logo or brand now but I did not charge you to build or convert it and thus I am not under any obligation to furnish them to you. Then I always follow up with if you would please explain to us why our work is no longer sufficient I am sure we can make any corrections. Best of luck to you on this one.

 

[TimToad]

The key is getting PAID for your work.

Way too many people out there think they can roll in to the shop, make you go through "revision hell" and then take the digital files you created while in "revision hell" and hand them off to another sign shop so they can get the work done for less money. They spend their evenings watching shows like CSI:Whatever with all sorts of stupid, fake, idiotic depictions of computer technology. Some actor rattles his fingers on a keyboard for 2 seconds and produces something on one or more monitors that took a team of motion graphics designers several hours for each person on the team to produce. But the customers only see that instant finger-rattling part of it. They have ZERO appreciation of what goes in to designing graphics using digital tools. They think you just click one or two buttons and the job is done. There's not even any creativity involved as far as they're concerned. The ideas, concepts, inspiration and anything else all comes bundled with whatever software we bought.

That's the reality of it. And that's why you, as a sign company, absolutely must stand up for yourself and your own interests. If you put no value on your designs and the time it took creating them then that will make your company an even easier mark for all the low-talent, bottom feeding, low-bid, scumbag rivals out there looking to put you out of business.

Generally speaking I agree with you on your premise. In this particular case though, its a bit different. We have an OP who had an established client and received various files and assets from the client to work with, not the other way around. I have to assume whatever time it took to manipulate those files to fit each project's needs was cooked into the price of the signs produced.

We don't know any of the real motivations behind the new purchaser at the client company looking elsewhere. It could be any number of reasons including that the OP's pricing or work quality were checked against a few other vendors and were found to be overpriced or not up to quality expectations for the price.

To me, the overriding lesson to be learned from what has been a very thought provoking conversation is that if we all need to button up our policies and make them as transparent as possible and distinguish between what is truly our intellectual property and what belongs to the client. I feel great about our company's approach and being up front with our clients on these kind of issues and we've had very few problems like this. We've also fired a few clients who weren't honest, mutually respectful partners we'd expect after they attempted to take advantage of our good nature and friendly collegiality that ikarasu practices and has implored us all to operate under. It is not a sign of weakness to be friendly, welcoming and accommodating.

 

[iPrintStuff]

This has only happened to us maybe once in the last 5 years and we relinquished the artwork no problem - gave the customer the files, we were under the impression we wouldn’t be seeing them again so they were sent all the files along with a note that we’d no longer hold any of their files in our storage. Long story short, they had a falling out with the new company, came back to us and had to be charged to re-do all their artwork. Win!

Ive seen a few people say they don’t charge for design etc upfront. What we do, is make any customer sign an authorisation note that basically states they’re happy for us to proceed with starting any print/design job. Obviously we get any invoice address etc that we need before proceeding. That way, if they get their design and then go elsewhere, we can just bill them any design costs incurred no problem. Our policy is one month without any contact and they get billed for any time spent. That way you’re still getting paid for those customers that waste your time or get their design 99% done then go MIA.

Holding artwork hostage is never going to end well. Simple as that. You’ll lose the customer for good, then lose any potential customers that they have any association with.

As long as you ensure that you’re being paid for absolutely everything you do for each customer, I don’t see any reason to not give them the files. Chances are the other company might not be using your software anyway, so just charge the customer “X” amount of time to reformat anything you can to the more well used file types. Getting paid to hit “save as”..

Looks like everyone will be rolling out new policies on Monday!

 

[brycesteiner]

Our policy is one month without any contact and they get billed for any time spent. That way you’re still getting paid for those customers that waste your time or get their design 99% done then go MIA.

I doubt if any of us who have responded will be rolling out any new policies on Monday. Especially the one quoted. It sounds good for me but I highly doubt anyone would pay on something like that and not seal the deal on them leaving. If they are gone and you didn't get your money, you won't get any by billing them more for the latest work in the month.

It sounds like many of us owners are doing the same thing but just calling it something different.

Unfortunately if you charged them for the files they belong to them. That is why I do not charge for file conversion or that kind os stuff so when I get those request I can politely say that I understand this may be your logo or brand now but I did not charge you to build or convert it and thus I am not under any obligation to furnish them to you.

This is the exact same thing many of us have been saying you are just calling it something else. You say you are not charging, but you really are. What you mean is that you don't have "sign art" itemized on the invoice, only your time. This is what I have been saying too. The customer does not own it. They paid for the sign and received what the ordered and our time was built in. They don't own the art or the supporting files that it took to make the final product. That doesn't mean I won't share a file with them or charge them based up on the circumstances, or perhaps give them a logo they can use for nothing just because they are a good customer.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Unfortunately if you charged them for the files they belong to them. That is why I do not charge for file conversion

Charging for the file itself and charging for the labor that goes into creating that file are actually 2 distinct different SKUs(at least with me and that difference is pointed out to my customers).

The thing that gets me (and since you are also in embroidery, I think you can also understand), if I'm creating a production file to be used in a finished good and it's one of those files that takes 6 - 8 hours to create (realistic animal embroidery in most instances, but it could be big, highly detailed fullback designs as well), I'm not going to consider that a sunk cost and not charge for the labor that goes into it.

I just don't "bake it" into some other charge as a hidden charge (not itemized), but I'm not going to work 6 - 8 hrs for nothing and consider it a sunk cost. Not happening. Not saying anyone here does that, just pointing out the other option some shops take.

 

[TimToad]

Charging for the file itself and charging for the labor that goes into creating that file are actually 2 distinct different SKUs(at least with me and that difference is pointed out to my customers).

The thing that gets me (and since you are also in embroidery, I think you can also understand), if I'm creating a production file to be used in a finished good and it's one of those files that takes 6 - 8 hours to create (realistic animal embroidery in most instances, but it could be big, highly detailed fullback designs as well), I'm not going to consider that a sunk cost and not charge for the labor that goes into it.

I just don't "bake it" into some other charge as a hidden charge (not itemized), but I'm not going to work 6 - 8 hrs for nothing and consider it a sunk cost. Not happening. Not saying anyone here does that, just pointing out the other option some shops take.

Let's be clear, there is a huge difference between an undertaking like you are describing that takes 6-8 hours and what most of us are doing on a routine basis and just accounting for in the cost of the product or in some other way. ie: Customer A sends us near production ready file and we may have to simply resize, rotate and save as our preferred file format and color profile.

In our state, labor time is not subject to sales tax, so 99% of our jobs no matter how big or small carry a small set-up/design fee line itemed on the invoice which is separate from the cost of the product itself. We do it in increments of 10 minutes and we figure even the smallest of jobs has a minimum of 10 minutes affixed to it.

I've worked in four different states and have seen it get lumped into the sign cost for simplicity sake, but burying that cost in the product for us would be a mistake because we'd be charging and collecting additional sales tax that isn't being demanded by the state.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Let's be clear, there is a huge difference between an undertaking like you are describing that takes 6-8 hours and what most of us are doing on a routine basis and just accounting for in the cost of the product or in some other way. ie: Customer A sends us near production ready file and we may have to simply resize, rotate and save as our preferred file format and color profile.

What got me in the response to that post that I did was this:

Unfortunately if you charged them for the files they belong to them. That is why I do not charge for file conversion or that kind os stuff so when I get those request I can politely say that I understand this may be your logo or brand now but I did not charge you to build or convert it and thus I am not under any obligation to furnish them to you.

What is in bold is what I was really responding to. "Building" a file to me is more involved then

Customer A sends us near production ready file and we may have to simply resize, rotate and save as our preferred file format and color profile.

If it's what you are talking about and I'm handed a production ready file and I'm rolling with it "as is" (regardless if it's truly correct or not (and if it's not in my opinion, I let them know and we discuss further options from there)), then I don't charge (3/4s of the options you listed don't exist (or in a negligible amount) in production ready files for me). I tell them I'm not a cloud storage provider and I do rotate files off my servers. If it's still on there and you ask for it, I'll provide it, if it's not, it's not.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Thanks, between the rain and this thread I fell asleep 20 posts ago.

 

[TimToad]

What got me in the response to that post that I did was this:



What is in bold is what I was really responding to. "Building" a file to me is more involved then



If it's what you are talking about and I'm handed a production ready file and I'm rolling with it "as is" (regardless if it's truly correct or not (and if it's not in my opinion, I let them know and we discuss further options from there)), then I don't charge (3/4s of the options you listed don't exist (or in a negligible amount) in production ready files for me). I tell them I'm not a cloud storage provider and I do rotate files off my servers. If it's still on there and you ask for it, I'll provide it, if it's not, it's not.

We do work for multiple ad agencies and graphic design firms who once clued into proper formatting, bleeds and of course converting all text to outlines, ALL send nearly print ready files.

We put the onus on clients to help us, help save them money on needless labor doing simple tasks that their creatives can be doing proactively. But we also pull off some pretty amazing logo recreations, cleanups and salvage operations from some real garbage and still don't think it's worthy attaching some magical, outrageous value to. That's been the way of the signmaker since the dawn of time.

At about $25-35 per Terrabyte for storage, I would never tell a customer that I don't value their files enough to "rotate" them off my servers for any reason. A customer just came in the other day who hadn't ordered anything in over 10 years. We came off like heroes showing them that their original files were all archived and able to be used again.

I have to wonder how much folks really love what they do with such dim views and antagonism towards their clients. Maybe it was the lessons I learned from my time in the hospitality industry where things were so competitive, your attitude and service had to be on target EVERY day or you got wrote up on TripAdvisor, Yelp, etc. and the guests no matter how picky, difficult or WRONG were never coming back to your establishment.

I got this craft in my blood at 18 years old and I love it like few other things I've ever done. For every rare difficult, overly demanding customer, there are 99 super loyal folks who brighten our day dealing with them.

 

[Bobby H]

Unfortunately if you charged them for the files they belong to them. That is why I do not charge for file conversion or that kind os stuff so when I get those request I can politely say that I understand this may be your logo or brand now but I did not charge you to build or convert it and thus I am not under any obligation to furnish them to you.

If we specifically charged a customer for converting a pixel based logo into vector artwork we wouldn't hesitate giving the customer a copy of that logo file, perhaps in 3 or more file formats even.

Earlier posts in this thread used the term "files," as in plural for what the client was requesting. We'll give clients copies of their logos. But we don't give them much of anything else. We sure won't give them editable copies of our shop drawings or full size sign drawings. Those files are our property. They contain more than just a logo. We often travel to the job site and do survey work on things like existing sign structures or measuring off lots of details of the building elevation. Then all of that gets to be reproduced in the computer. A rival sign company can get the client's logo file. They can use that logo file to develop their own sign compositions, shop drawings, etc.

 

[TimToad]

If we specifically charged a customer for converting a pixel based logo into vector artwork we wouldn't hesitate giving the customer a copy of that logo file, perhaps in 3 or more file formats even.

Earlier posts in this thread used the term "files," as in plural for what the client was requesting. We'll give clients copies of their logos. But we don't give them much of anything else. We sure won't give them editable copies of our shop drawings or full size sign drawings. Those files are our property. They contain more than just a logo. We often travel to the job site and do survey work on things like existing sign structures or measuring off lots of details of the building elevation. Then all of that gets to be reproduced in the computer. A rival sign company can get the client's logo file. They can use that logo file to develop their own sign compositions, shop drawings, etc.

You know the real sad thing about some of this?

It's that more and more we're finding that it isn't our peers that we have to worry about snagging and working from our proofs, or underbidding based on an unscrupulous or unaware client sharing our layout concepts or proofs with the bottom feeder competitors.

True peers will actually call and let us know that XYZ Company just forwarded them our proof with pricing and everything on it and asking if they'd do it for less. We've gotten in the habit of sending only .jpgs for proofs to everyone until the job is fully secured with a deposit.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

You know the real sad thing about some of this?

It's that more and more we're finding that it isn't our peers that we have to worry about snagging and working from our proofs, or underbidding based on an unscrupulous or unaware client sharing our layout concepts or proofs with the bottom feeder competitors.

True peers will actually call and let us know that XYZ Company just forwarded them our proof with pricing and everything on it and asking if they'd do it for less. We've gotten in the habit of sending only .jpgs for proofs to everyone until the job is fully secured with a deposit.

I know not to trust a customer that brings me "sales art", that often has the the image or paper trimmed to omit the originating sign company's logo. I know my fellow competitors proof layouts and I can usually tell where they come from. When a customer brings me something like that to bid on I usually don't waste my time.

 

[ColorCrest]

We've gotten in the habit of sending only .jpgs for proofs to everyone until the job is fully secured with a deposit.

I another thread about proof templates I mentioned placing (usually down-sized) TIFFs or JPEGs into PDF proof templates for email. I've never used any other method. Occasionally used PDF security features for obvious reasons.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I would never tell a customer that I don't value their files enough to "rotate" them off my servers for any reason.

Bare in mind, this is only customers that supply their own files. This is not with regard to ones that come to me either to create files for them to use on their own or if I do the whole pipeline for them. I rotate my files on to backups for the other customers and I do keep them. I've got files dating from when I started in '94.

Typically they don't do the edits, more often then not, they think I'm BS'ing them (I know they are thinking this, because they say it) about their files needing edits in the first place, so the conversation rarely gets to the point of not keeping it on the server.

Consider that these types of files that quality depends a lot on are exceptionally cheap compared to when I first started in this trade and there are some people that they it shouldn't cost anything at all.

 

[ColorCrest]

I know not to trust a customer that brings me "sales art", that often has the the image or paper trimmed to omit the originating sign company's logo. I know my fellow competitors proof layouts and I can usually tell where they come from. When a customer brings me something like that to bid on I usually don't waste my time.

A age-old technique to watermark proofs is to use single-pixel wide graphics or text anywhere or everywhere in the proof using only yellow. Illuminate the proof with your nozzle check pen light. The same technique used to place serial numbers on every print from most color copiers.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

A age-old technique to watermark proofs is to use single-pixel wide graphics or text anywhere or everywhere in the proof using only yellow. Illuminate the proof with your nozzle check pen light. The same technique used to place serial numbers on every print from most color copiers.

If you have to go that far to protect your proofs then you have the wrong client.

 

[ColorCrest]

If you have to go that far to protect your proofs then you have the wrong client.

Sometimes just part of becoming a qualified vendor to handle certain assets of theirs, as the proof is practically theirs as well.

 

[Johnny Best]