Connecting 4x4 aluminum posts to concrete

[Notarealsignguy]

Perhaps, that's their goal.

to kill me?

 

[Gino]

and there ya go....... you said it, not them. No one's to blame but yourself. You put these ideas into your head and they become yours, while the people who cleverly did it, don't get looked at twice.

 

[Jean Shimp]

Thanks for all the replies. After reading these posts I told my client I will not install the sign without having it approved by a structural engineer. I am offering to pay the cost of the engineer since it was poor judgement on my part to overlook the implications of the installation before I quoted a price. Lesson learned, don't be rushed into quoting a price. Here in Florida we do get hurricane force winds every year. I wouldn't be surprised if the client cancels the whole job when they see what the installation will cost according to what the engineer is going to spec out.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

and there ya go....... you said it, not them. No one's to blame but yourself. You put these ideas into your head and they become yours, while the people who cleverly did it, don't get looked at twice.

or are you suggesting that the people on the boards like the representatives from the engineering firms, architects, construction consultants and insurers, that write and change these codes are doing it for their own benefit? Surely everything is done in good faith with 100% of the publics best interest in mind

 

[Gino]

or are you suggesting that the people on the boards like the representatives from the engineering firms, architects, construction consultants and insurers, that write and change these codes are doing it for their own benefit? Surely everything is done in good faith with 100% of the publics best interest in mind

It's this, right here.

What I said is what I mean/meant. Interpretation is not needed, unless you have a seeing eye dogs at your side.

 

[Scotchbrite]

Last year we installed several face-lit channel letter signs at a new storage company. The building department asked me to provide the weight of each letter and then they decided we needed to have the mounting specs stamped by an engineer. Luckily we were eventually able to convince them it would be okay if the 5 pound letters were held to the sheet metal wall with #10 screws that could each hold well over 300 pounds in pullout tension.

The biggest problem we're having around here is the smaller municipalities are contracting with private building inspection companies. The towns don't care how much the inspection company charges because they pass it straight thru to the customer. The inspection company just requires everything to have an engineer stamp so they don't have to actually look it but instead just rubber stamp what the engineer spec'd. Pretty much the response I get anytime I question this stuff is can't possibly know how to do this correctly because I'm not an engineer. To me it's further indication of a lack of respect for the trades. Only college grads know enough to do things right.

It all feels like job justification.

 

[Gino]

Going through that as we speak. We're taking down a 3' x 12' cabinet and putting up a set of channels. The weight is nothing compared to what is up there now, but they're making the tenant jump through hoops.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Last year we installed several face-lit channel letter signs at a new storage company. The building department asked me to provide the weight of each letter and then they decided we needed to have the mounting specs stamped by an engineer. Luckily we were eventually able to convince them it would be okay if the 5 pound letters were held to the sheet metal wall with #10 screws that could each hold well over 300 pounds in pullout tension.

The biggest problem we're having around here is the smaller municipalities are contracting with private building inspection companies. The towns don't care how much the inspection company charges because they pass it straight thru to the customer. The inspection company just requires everything to have an engineer stamp so they don't have to actually look it but instead just rubber stamp what the engineer spec'd. Pretty much the response I get anytime I question this stuff is can't possibly know how to do this correctly because I'm not an engineer. To me it's further indication of a lack of respect for the trades. Only college grads know enough to do things right.

It all feels like job justification.

If this is what it all comes down to then why require people to have a contractors license and all the BS that goes with it? The whole point of it is to prove competency in your trade but any knucklehead can follow a drawing. If they can't, then the inspector will fail it and they can pay for a do-over.

 

[PatriotWorks]

I think most of the people on this thread are overthinking what should be a simple sign w/ a simple installation.

I'm retired and enjoying my sunset years. If it hangs, swings in the wind, involves sidewalks and is in town...and my lifetime of experience detects risk to my livelihood.....I'm adamant. I'll make the sign but the customer is responsible for installation. Some don't like my attitude, don't appreciate mother nature or both and move on. That's fine by me.
Over thinking wasn't a problem when I was younger, I had nothing, and no experience. ;-)
The finest people in my town, good friends, built two nice looking signs that hung for 20 years. One day, one sign crashed to the ground narrowly missing a lady and a vehicle.
That won't be me.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

Engineered? My customers would never be willing to pay an additional $250+ to have their 4' x 6' ACM panel on posts sign engineered. The sign in question here is so small that it doesn't even register on the charts I use for a basic determination of post/footing sizes.
I think most of the people on this thread are overthinking what should be a simple sign w/ a simple installation.

I would not pay a licensed engineer for this type of job. I would just engineer it myself in 10 minutes.

 

[Jean Shimp]

I would not pay a licensed engineer for this type of job. I would just engineer it myself in 10 minutes.

What do you use for a resource for this information? Is there a website or software available that can do engineering calculations? Keeping in mind if the sign blows down and causes damage or hurts someone and we get sued the first thing we will need to prove is that we did due diligence in determining the correct support for the sign. Judging by the responses to the original question on this installation, this particular situation raises a lot of concern to several professional installers. In this case I would want to have solid evidence that the sign was designed correctly.

 

[Gino]

In today's environment, you hafta be certain you are not held liable. Get everything in writing and have it dated and signed off on, before you do something you may wish later you had done correctly. Doing it yourself will work, but should something go wrong as you suggested, you will be the sole person responsible. It could ruin you financially, according to what happens, but ask yourself this......... should someone get severely hurt or even killed, could you live with youself afterwards ?? That's the big question.

Ya know, a kid could get hurt and maybe scared for life, if you put a stupid parking sign in wrong. Just do what you think is best and learn to live with it. It's only a sign....... ??

 

[Scotchbrite]

What do you use for a resource for this information? Is there a website or software available that can do engineering calculations? Keeping in mind if the sign blows down and causes damage or hurts someone and we get sued the first thing we will need to prove is that we did due diligence in determining the correct support for the sign. Judging by the responses to the original question on this installation, this particular situation raises a lot of concern to several professional installers. In this case I would want to have solid evidence that the sign was designed correctly.

You are right about this situation being too questionable to just anchor to the sidewalk and be okay with it. But if this was a project someone brought to me, I would go with what I know. I wouldn't feel the need to pay for engineering, but I also wouldn't just anchor it to the sidewalk. It used to be we couldn't get an engineer to do this even if we wanted. For starters, they wouldn't engineer a footing without having a soils report and most of them weren't willing to just make standard assumptions without the soils report. We had our own ways to figure out sign footings making those common assumptions.

There is a somewhat complicated formula for figuring out footing sizes, but not too hard to figure out. This is what we used for decades.



I believe a lot of this kind of stuff used to be covered in trade magazines like Signs of the Times. I know the original source for our use of the formula was from a trade source of some kind.

The other component was determining the steel support which requires knowing what section modulus is required and the steel that meets that. We have a chart that came from a company that marketed steel pipes to sign companies.



I also have a big, thick hardbound book called The Steel Construction Manual that gives structural specs on all types of steel so that if you have the section modulus you need you can find a square tube, rectangle tube, c-channel, or beam that will fit the need.

All of that above really only works best for direct embedment. It doesn't give you information that you would need for anchor bolt footings which add the need for rebar cages and mats.

Our local sign association paid an engineering firm to develop an entire packet that lays out all the info above plus other scenarios like anchor bolts, spread footers, slab footers, etc. Some municipalities will except the information from this packet, but most still want the stamped designs. At the very least we have enough info to quote projects without having to pay to engineer them just to make a quote. And if it happens to be a scenario that doesn't require us to have engineered stamped footings, we have the resources to know we're still doing it right - not to mention decades of experience.

 

[kcollinsdesign]

What do you use for a resource for this information? Is there a website or software available that can do engineering calculations? Keeping in mind if the sign blows down and causes damage or hurts someone and we get sued the first thing we will need to prove is that we did due diligence in determining the correct support for the sign. Judging by the responses to the original question on this installation, this particular situation raises a lot of concern to several professional installers. In this case I would want to have solid evidence that the sign was designed correctly.

In all cases, if there is any question of somebody getting hurt (liability), all due diligence should be applied. Even if nobody is likely to get hurt, liability issues make proper engineering essential. I will use a qualified engineer in most of those situations.
It is unrealistic to expect, however, that the majority of signs put up will need an engineer's stamp. Many jobs can be engineered in house (often with a substantial safety margin) if you know what you are doing. The two classic resources are "Engineering Sign Structures" by Benjamin Jones, and "Sign Structures and Foundations" by Peter Horsley. In addition to being safe and responsible, engineering a sign correctly can result in material savings and higher profits.

 

[Johnny Best]

What they ended up with.