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Discussion Copyright Issues
- Thread starter Greg Kelm
- Start date
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I find it interesting (particularly who) think that it's OK if the odds of getting caught are very very slim. Not that it's wrong, but just what are the odds of getting caught (you know, this type of apathetic thinking could also work against one as well).
I don't know, maybe it's because I'm of the Cusper or Oregon Trail generation and our line of thinking is wonky (re: stupid). If I know I'm doing something wrong (not that I may or may not agree with the fact that it is in the wrong), but I personally don't like the reflection that it says of me as a professional. But that's just me.
I don't know, maybe it's because I'm of the Cusper or Oregon Trail generation and our line of thinking is wonky (re: stupid). If I know I'm doing something wrong (not that I may or may not agree with the fact that it is in the wrong), but I personally don't like the reflection that it says of me as a professional. But that's just me.
James Burke
Being a grandpa is more fun than working
I treat other's IP just like I expect others to treat mine. If I don't want anybody copying mine, then I certainly don't copy any one elses.
One of my vendors actually requires written permission from the IP owner stating that we have their permission to use it (for bronze work).
JB
One of my vendors actually requires written permission from the IP owner stating that we have their permission to use it (for bronze work).
JB
I guess I'm just used to how it's treated in Canada. We're not Sue happy over here like American companies are - The max fine over here, for non commercial uses... IE you don't proffit on it, is a $5000 fine.Thats not even per infringement like in USA... Thats total. I could print a million stickers from Disney, Fox, Sony, and 100 other IP holders and so long as I wasn't profiting or benefiting my business from it... The max I'd pay is $5000. You're not going to lose your company for printing a kid a free banner - It'd cost disney, or someone else far, far more than $5000 just to get their lawyer to setup a court date to try and sue you.
Thats how it should be in my opinion. If you're proffiting off someone elses work... Thats a no no. If you're doing "Fan art", or making a 5 year old kid happy for his birthday... No one is getting hurt in the process and you're not proffiting off someone elses work... wheres the harm in that?
As Close as USA/Canadian are to eachother, we tend to view things differently. A lot of our laws are based on USA pushing us into them... But our limits aren't as crazy.
Everytime this thread comes up it gets kind of heated though. People on one side view it as stealing... people on the other side view it much, much lighter.
A lot of people say it's against the law, so it's wrong no matter what morals say... Do you ever go 5 miles over the speed limit? Or jaywalk? There are a lot of rules and laws out there, a lot of good ones...and a lot that are just dumb. I understand that printing a paw patrol banner for my kids birthday can get me in trouble, but I also understand I can get a ticket for crossing the street 50 ft away from the cross walk. Sometimes, you have to do what you have to do.
I've actually purchased some wall decals before... just because I wanted to blow them up to a bigger size and print them for my kids room, without having shitty Room mates vinyl that peels off and tears chunks of paint off my wall. I'll gladly pay for and support content when I can, I have no issues with that.
Copyright is getting stupid. My kid just had school photos taken again - I purchased a package and the digital CD so I can blow up and make my own stuff, however it comes with a big notice saying I'm not allowed to re-produce the images I just paid for... of my own kid, because they own the copyright. It's a good thing I paid $25 for the digital version - I mean, I guess technically if I put that photo I purchased into my scanner and scanned it I'd technically be breaking copyright law again... so the $25 just allows me to view it on my PC.
I'm for it in the opposite direction also. If a customer pays me $30-50 an hour to create some artwork for them... I feel like it's their artwork, and they can run to the next sign shop to get it printed if they like. They paid me to produce it... I was their "Contractor" and I know technically It doesn't work that way... But it's just an example to show it works both ways.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Interesting. Morals range across the map depending on the person. What is the right take on it versus whose is the wrong and what makes it right in this instance, versus not right in the next instance? Especially when it is about going against the law.
Like I said before, I don't care if you agree with it or not (and I'm not saying my position one way or the other as far as agreeing or not agreeing), it's what is on the books.
See to me, the "do what you have to do" is actually come up with original characters. That's what I did for my kids. Did animation for them, books, whole she bang. Guess what, I don't have to give a damn if someone else is going to come after me. Because it's all my stuff.
That to me is "doing what I have to do".
Everything has a EULA, been that way for a long time.
Most everything is a license to use "as is".
As the IP owner, they have the right to offer what products they want to offer, how they want to offer it. Sometimes that sucks, but it's their property to do with that they want to. I find that it really sucks that some companies have ruined IPs that I grew up with and turned them into dumpster fires that they are today, but it's their property, they have a right to do it. Won't last long in the long run, but they own it.
I have to wonder, anyone here have caveats, EULAs on their work? "This is only an approval sheet, don't go to others" blah blah blah (whatever derivation of that or in another type of EULA)?
Guess what, say bye bye to it.
What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
Not necessarily. That maybe considered a form of archiving. Which is typically granted (as long as done in a format associated with archiving).
Now granted, some EULAs may not be considered valid, depends on what the jurisdiction is and what they do or don't allow. Same thing with contracts.
For instance, I know quite a few say that they are fond of the "emergency repair" clause and what they really mean is "repo". In my jurisdiction, that clause would be considered null and void as "repossession" would have to be explicit used in said clause for it to be valid. In other words, no "colorful" language to hide what one truly means. Things like that.
I'm surprised about not having the ability to print out copies if the files were used "as is". That does seem excessive to me. I know a photographer friend of mine only stipulates not editing the files (which editing can be a broad topic), but have the ability to reproduce the files at a whim, just so long as it's "as is".
It's not just morals, but also cultures. In Canada... Something like this isn't as big of an issue, so long as you don't proffit off of it. Then you have countries like China... Where they don't give a crap about IP at all from foreign countries. Who's right? I feel like America is too strict, Canada law is even a little too strict... And China is wrong. While I'm sure many Americans feel like America is right and canada isn't strict enough. Or the opposite.
I don't think it's about who is right... Or who is wrong, I think everyone has to decide for themselves... And live with the consequences.
There's been a few cases in Canada, a recent one I can remember is Nintendo. (Going off memory here) Someone drew some fanart and was either displaying it or selling it..and Nintendo threatened to sue. There was so much backlash about it that they reversed their decision... They actually came out and said they have no issues with fanart or homemade crafts... However if they didn't Perdue it... It opens the gates for other companies to proffit off their work. That you.need to protect your copyright from everyone, or it'll be used against you when someone actually steals it. To me.... That's a broken system.
I'm not arguing what the law is or isn't. I'm not a lawyer.... I only known the summaries I've read from them. But I see it like I see the past. It used to be illegal to use a vcr to record a show on cable so you can watch it later. The music industry tried to kill mp3s because they said it was only used for copyright infringement..... They tried to kill all streaming.. Until they saw it wasn't going anywhere and they adapted... Now look at spotify.
Of course Disney doesn't want you to use a picture of iron man on a banner unless they get a piece of the pie somehow... But does that mean it's the way it should be? I hope one day they adapt. I dream of a spotify for images. And I'm not dillusional. I don't think printing an iron man banner for my kid is going to get me that. But I'm also not going to give up on my beliefs just because a multi billion dollar company lobbied to get laws changed. Disney keeps getting copyrights extended and copyright laws become more and more harsh everytime they want it to. Our laws should be made and decided by the people, not by the person with the biggest pocket. Sadly... Today's world doesn't work that way.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
It never really worked that way here (contrary to what a lot of people may think, America isn't a democracy, but a republic (and in a some ways that's a good thing and in some ways not so much)).
Absolutely, just so long as don't "you" whine about the consequences and if someone else decides to apply the same logic when it comes against "you" as well. I'm not saying that you would, I'm speaking in generalities, why I use "you" instead of you.
It's far from perfect though, I'm not that delusional on that.
I don't recall it being illegal here. Sony tried (but against Beta Max if I recall correctly), but they lost the case, but I don't recall it actually being illegal on the books before that decision. But then again, by the time that was being hashed out, I was a young kid and I may be remembering wrong.
WildWestDesigns said:
My friend, I think what you're talking about is ETHICS.
Personally, I'm a big fan of ethics. Being ethical is when, while no one is watching, you have the free and clear opportunity to do something that is fundamentally wrong and get away with it. But you still choose to do the right thing anyway.
I know deep down that my mother has a good heart. She loves her dogs, cats, horses and that stuff. That's one example of having a good heart. Another is one of many good lessons I received growing up. Here's one that happened when I was 14 years old: my family was living in Gretna, LA then. My brother and I had been playing a coin-op Tempest game in the front entry area of a Woolworths store while our mother shopped. Our quarters ran out so we went out in the parking lot towards the family vehicle to wait. We found a wallet with money in it along the way. Well, hell, we could have played a lot of Tempest and Centipede with the cash inside. We showed Mom what we found and she immediately made us turn the wallet in to the store's lost and found, including all the cash it contained. We were upset our mother didn't let us keep all that money. Finders keepers, right? But it didn't take long for us appreciate what she did. Our mother demonstrated to us what integrity really means.
ikarasu said:
Here's my take on it. Many of the participants in this forum consider themselves to be creative on a professional, paid-level basis. Why not use those abilities to create some new characters to incorporate into a banner (or mural, nursery wall, etc)? Why does the banner have to use some other commercial company's copyrighted or trademarked $#!+?
What we're talking about here is a very long way from drawing a Van Halen "VH" logo on a high school class notebook binder from way back when. That's "fan art." But that seems to be the model being applied to make it okay for a commercial sign company to infringe on IP from other companies.
Whether the customer pays for the banner or it is "donated" the sign shop is still using its premises and commercial capabilities to do the work. That's a big problem on its own. And, as previously stated, it doesn't even take that to draw legal ire from multi-national media corporations like Disney or other businesses with popular trademarks (like Coca-Cola or Harley Davidson). Hand paint Mickey Mouse on the outside of your tool shed in your own back yard and you could get calls from Disney attorneys to cease and desist. It's best to stay away from banner jobs like what the OP mentioned to be on the safe side.
Besides that, as CanuckSigns (in Ontario) said earlier:
CanuckSigns said:
On to the next thing:
ikarasu said:
Perhaps you don't understand the business model of professional photographers. Now, I don't necessarily agree with the student pictures racket. Honestly, what difference does it make to those guys if you have copies of the original digital files (even Camera RAW files)? The images are worth little if anything to them after that event. Nevertheless, studio photographers make a lot of their money after the photos are taken, re-touching photos, creating inter-active albums and all sorts of other value-added stuff. Pro-quality camera and lighting gear is still really expensive -especially some of the niche stuff (large format digital cameras with leaf-shutter lenses and strobing systems able to sync flash at 1/2000 sec to control ambient daylight outdoors).
There's no shortage of idiots out there who think they're on a professional photographer's level just because they own the latest iPhone. Seriously. With that being said, if someone doesn't like the terms offered by an event photographer he is certainly free to go buy his own camera bodies, lenses, tripods, lights, etc and DIY.
ikarasu said:
There is nothing "feels like" about it. It's usually best to get terms established in writing. Having some verbal understanding about things is only a good way to get screwed. It's pretty common for sign companies to provide digital files of logos (created from scratch or vectorized from other crummy sources) after the customer has at least purchased something. If I'm working on a freelance basis, I'm going to have some kind of contract put together to ensure I get paid for my work. From the perspective of a sign company, yeah, I can provide the client with digital files. But I don't necessarily have to provide the client with files some cut-rate bottom feeder rival is going to be able to use successfully.
ikarasu said:
Um, definitely NOT CHINA! What kind of rationale are you trying to sell here? And this "well, I'm not profiting of it angle" is really a non-starter. No one here is going to be doing their work for free.
ikarasu said:
Again, no. In the case of Disney/Marvel, they don't even want you working on a sign project involving Iron Man unless they themselves commissioned you do it. That's really the key thing right there.
Sign companies reproduce registered trademarks all the time. But 99.9% of the time the people who are asking us to do so are within legal bounds to request it. But, still, when it's a pretty big brand we still have to follow their brand guidelines. Use the right amount of white space around the logo, the approved colors, etc. Often the higher ups have to see a sketch to sign off their approval before writing a check to the franchise owner to subsidize the sign work.
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Jeff grossman
Living the dream
so this is a no no ? Ac / dc font / aarp
James Burke
Being a grandpa is more fun than working
Stacey K
I like making signs
I know this is an old thread but I just got off of a FB private group in which a member stated there is a big push right now by Homeland Security with copyright infringement. Apparently, many of these tshirt boutiques are getting shut down...specifically those selling NFL, LV, Rolling Stones tongue and of course Disney. Could it be true that a security office from Homeland Security paid one of these boutiques a physical visit? (seems a bit overboard, perhaps to poster works for Homeland Security LOL) If you look on Etsy...there's a million of these shirts for sale. Hard to believe they don't get shut down. It's on my mind because a bar just contacted me about doing some Patron liquor hoodies. There is a case in which I could get caught on the next liquor delivery to the bar! I said no LOL
bannertime
Active Member
DHS is not in the business of Copyright Infringement. Now, Customs and Border Protection can in fact do things like seize goods that infringe on certain things. So, I'm not sure how truthful these comment can be.
I wouldn't think the Dept of Homeland Security would be involved with any enforcement actions on copyright or trademark infringement. However, the situation takes me back to my days of living in New York City. Back then there was a lot of sidewalk vendors and regular brick and mortar shops selling t-shirts and all sorts of stuff with illegally used IP. The t-shirts were terrible quality too by the way. Just a few washes and the shirt would be badly shrunk or warped out of shape and the graphics would wear or fade off in no time. I remember the people selling that stuff: just about all were foreign-born and not white. That might be why DHS is getting involved in this particular sting.
Copyright is a civil matter, not a criminal matter. DHS Wouldn't touch anything to do with copyright - Customs and border will seize goods coming into the country that aren't legit... but they wouldn't crack down on it when it's local.
Generally it is the FBI that conducts raids - And even then...all they do is seize goods / serve you with a notice to appear, just to make sure youre not getting rid of evidence before they sue you for every penny you have.
A lot of the online vendors ship direct from china... Where there is no piracy laws. The only hope copyright holders have is if something gets seized at the border, which is very very rare. All the home crafters who do it are small time, and not worth bringing to court.
thats not to say it's safe to print or do copyrighted stuff... Just that there's bigger fish in the sea to fry than a guy on etsy printing out my little pony stickers on his desktop printer making $10 a week.
Theres sadly way, way too much copyright theft going on for them to ever be effective in cracking down on it.
Generally it is the FBI that conducts raids - And even then...all they do is seize goods / serve you with a notice to appear, just to make sure youre not getting rid of evidence before they sue you for every penny you have.
A lot of the online vendors ship direct from china... Where there is no piracy laws. The only hope copyright holders have is if something gets seized at the border, which is very very rare. All the home crafters who do it are small time, and not worth bringing to court.
thats not to say it's safe to print or do copyrighted stuff... Just that there's bigger fish in the sea to fry than a guy on etsy printing out my little pony stickers on his desktop printer making $10 a week.
Theres sadly way, way too much copyright theft going on for them to ever be effective in cracking down on it.
Homeland Security has been known to act as an enforcement arm of large corporations over copyright violations. Way back in 2010 they raided a number of websites at Disney's behest and shut them down, with raids on private residences as part of it. The completed raids were actually announced by Disney onstage in a press conference, with DoHS and ICE personnel standing behind them onstage. Don't know how much they get involved in this type of activity since then. That was actually all I could find in a quick search.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
I haven't been back since that nasty fire a few yrs back, but up in Gatlinburg, Alicia and I counted 15 tshirt shops at one time that were all within walking distance at that tourist area. I highly doubt that they all had licenses for Marvel characters. Possible, but I doubt it. I don't recall any of them being foreign born, at least not the ones that I saw running the counter (if any one of them was the owner as well).
I don't know how many, if any, came back as things were fixed up around there.
I don't know about the activities in Tennessee, but knowing the kind of activity taking place in the highly populated coastal areas of California and the Eastern Seaboard, I can't help but wonder if DHS is stepping in to bust these t-shirt shops could there be an anti-immigration angle to it? It would be interesting to see the demographic of who is getting busted.
Technology improvements in recent years make it very possible for the government to cast a very wide net to bust violators of copyrights and trademarks. I would not be surprised if companies like Disney already have AI-like software sniffing and scrubbing through the Internet actively looking for violators.
Just even in a "boots on the ground" sense, it would extremely EASY for the government to run copyright/trademark violation stings on virtually any flea market and catch all kinds of people selling illegal merchandise. I'm kind of surprised they apparently don't do this already. People selling t-shirts, vinyl decals, etc with illegally used logos and other IP is one thing. But then there's always at least one or more booths where someone is selling illegal Fire Sticks, Kodi boxes and other methods to deliver pirated movies and cable TV shows. The penalties for selling pirated music or movies can be very severe. It seems pretty strange these very widespread operations are seemingly (or deliberately) being overlooked.
ikarasu said:
Technology improvements in recent years make it very possible for the government to cast a very wide net to bust violators of copyrights and trademarks. I would not be surprised if companies like Disney already have AI-like software sniffing and scrubbing through the Internet actively looking for violators.
Just even in a "boots on the ground" sense, it would extremely EASY for the government to run copyright/trademark violation stings on virtually any flea market and catch all kinds of people selling illegal merchandise. I'm kind of surprised they apparently don't do this already. People selling t-shirts, vinyl decals, etc with illegally used logos and other IP is one thing. But then there's always at least one or more booths where someone is selling illegal Fire Sticks, Kodi boxes and other methods to deliver pirated movies and cable TV shows. The penalties for selling pirated music or movies can be very severe. It seems pretty strange these very widespread operations are seemingly (or deliberately) being overlooked.
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WildWestDesigns
Active Member
May not necessarily be due to immigration angle, but it could still be customs related depending on where their shops sources are. Especially if one is talking about the more major, highly populated cities. Gatlinburg, with these shops, I would find that situation unlikely, but it could depend on their other wares as well.
I wouldn't be surprised though if the small fry were being "overlooked" to get to the bigger ones. Just me speculating though.
I wouldn't be surprised though if the small fry were being "overlooked" to get to the bigger ones. Just me speculating though.