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Copyright or Trademarked Printing

AGinVT

New Member
I'm sure many of you have run into this issue before. Customers come in looking for a John Deere or Cummings or Toucan Sam or whatever graphic. I have always told them that we can't reproduce these items unless it's something they have been given the rights to use.

Am I wrong in this assumption or is it pretty open and shut when it comes to these issues?
 

fresh

New Member
Are they selling or servicing those products? If so, I don't think there is any problem. Toucan Sam I'd be a little more hesitant.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
This same question comes up about once a month, it seems.

No trademarks, logos or anything else which is protected may be reproduced by you. YOU are the one who needs it in Black & White, signed, dated, sealed and delivered in your hand. The person pressing the print button is the person responsible for making sure you are not infringing on anyone's rights. You can make it easy on yourself and have your customer do the leg work, but it must be from a higher up power, than some salesperson selling a tractor or wanting a bird on their kid's wall. You need it, not them.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
I've asked before, but I don't think I got an answer. Someone like signs365, would they be responsible if I uploaded harley art and got it printed? I imagine they have a statement that reads something like, "by clicking here, you agree that you own...."
I've never used them, but curious how it would work out.
If there is any criminal case than Id say no, civil case is quite possible. If you send a kilo of coke through UPS and get caught, do they charge UPS with trafficking? If UPS didn't have a screening process in place and someone OD'd on that coke, chances are they would be sued for negligence.
 

Reveal1

New Member
I occasionally have indignant would-be customers that say 'so and so down the street did it for a friend' My reply is that I guess so and so has no problem breaking the law. Even had a guy offer to pay me $1000 to illegally reproduce Ford Raptor decals. We're a creative business and I can't stand it when someone wants to rip off someone's creative, even if they rationalize it's an evil mega-corporation and somehow okay.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Awesome Graphics said:
I'm sure many of you have run into this issue before. Customers come in looking for a John Deere or Cummings or Toucan Sam or whatever graphic. I have always told them that we can't reproduce these items unless it's something they have been given the rights to use.

We're pretty strict how we handle those situations. If a guy visits our shop wanting a John Deere logo on his vehicle doors or back window we'll do it if he is from a John Deere dealer and has legit approval for it. For signs, vehicle graphics, etc we usually request the company's latest branding and signage manuals. Very often higher ups at those corporations have to approve the work, especially if they're reimbursing the dealer for some or all of the cost of the sign work.

If it's just some guy wanting a John Deere logo for his personal vehicle then we won't do it. Usually those types don't want to pay what the job is worth anyway.

While we have our principals, there are plenty of bottom feeder companies out there who won't blink twice before illegally reproducing trademarked brands for anyone who walks in off the street.
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
I've asked before, but I don't think I got an answer. Someone like signs365, would they be responsible if I uploaded harley art and got it printed? I imagine they have a statement that reads something like, "by clicking here, you agree that you own...."
I've never used them, but curious how it would work out.


I don't think you can have such an open ended waiver count in law. You are the printer/duplicator. Therefore, it is up to you to make sure you have an authorized and dated signature, such as from Harley/Disney/Warner Bros/John Deer/Eagles/ Cardinals/Flyers and the list goes on. These are all protected articles and you cannot depend on some joker saying, yeah, I sell them thar things, so I can use it. You have my permission. Here's my John Hancock. The only thing they will get in trouble for is signing a worthless piece of paper. You, on the other hand, are the one who printed it. You broke the law. Y'all can make up all the scenarios ya want. The law's the law.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
I don't think you can have such an open ended waiver count in law. You are the printer/duplicator. Therefore, it is up to you to make sure you have an authorized and dated signature, such as from Harley/Disney/Warner Bros/John Deer/Eagles/ Cardinals/Flyers and the list goes on. These are all protected articles and you cannot depend on some joker saying, yeah, I sell them thar things, so I can use it. You have my permission. Here's my John Hancock. The only thing they will get in trouble for is signing a worthless piece of paper. You, on the other hand, are the one who printed it. You broke the law. Y'all can make up all the scenarios ya want. The law's the law.
Agreed. In business law they teach you that you cant waiver away your responsibility. The example used were the signs in parking lots saying we are not responsible for damage caused by shopping carts. Same would go for a dump truck that says we are not responsible for broken windshields.
 

AGinVT

New Member
Thank you all for the quick responses. It sounds like we're all on the same page. And Bobby H, you are right about them typically being the kind of customers who don't want to pay. Too funny.
 

TomK

New Member
Sticker mule does this all day long, upload whatever you want, they print and ship, and they aren't a small business by any means. I imagine it is just a matter of time before some company hits them with a lawsuit, just like they are doing with the larger POD shops.
 

signbrad

New Member
Are they selling or servicing those products? If so, I don't think there is any problem. Toucan Sam I'd be a little more hesitant.
This is an important distinction. There is a difference between trademark protection and copyright protection. They are not just two "levels" of the same thing. The purposes of the two types of protection are completely different and the standards for infringement differ.

Copyright Infringement

An artist or author has the right to prevent others from copying his or her original "work of authorship." The act of copying an original work without permission is copyright infringement. Copyright law gives the creator of a "work of authorship" a monopoly on their creation. No one else can copy it or even make a derivative of it without permission.
This is only true, though, if the work that the artist created actually qualifies for copyright protection in the first place. It is typical for a logo to NOT qualify for copyright protection in the US. Why not? Because most logos consist of mere lettering and/or common shapes. These things do not have copyright protection according to the US Copyright Office.
The Toucan Sam cartoon is no doubt protected by copyright as a "work of authorship." But is the Subway sandwich restaurant logo protected by copyright? No. Nor are the Best Western and the Geek Squad logos. They don't meet the standard for copyright protection. But the Subway name is protected by trademark law.

Trademark infringement

"Trademark infringement is the unauthorized use of a trademark or service mark on or in connection with goods and/or services in a manner that is likely to cause confusion, deception, or mistake about the source of the goods and/or services."—this is from the website of the US Patent and Trademark Office, though I added the italics.
Trademark law is all about preventing confusion in the marketplace. It's part of the body of laws designed to prevent unfair business practices.
Trademark law is not so much about "copying" logos; it is about using logos in a way that confuses people. For example, if you build farm tractors, you cannot put John Deere logos on them. You can't even call them "John Deere," because the very name is protected by trademark law, not just the logo. You can't paint them green with a yellow stripe, either, because that color combination is protected as a color trademark (for farm equipment). In fact, a few years ago, Deere & Company won a court decision against a Chinese tractor company on this very issue—the paint scheme—and it was in a Chinese court of law!

But what if a farmer's daughter painted the John Deere logo on his basement wall? Would people be confused by this in some way? What if the farmer hung a hand made John Deere banner inside his machine shed? Is it likely that Deere & Company would accuse him of trademark infringement? I suppose it's possible. But I don't think it's likely. Remember, trademark infringement is not strictly about copying, it's about misleading the public, confusing them as to the source of goods or services.
On the other hand, what if the farmer's talented and resourceful son started selling mailboxes and license plates to area farmers with the Deere logo on them? At some point, if it came to Deer's attention, they may tell him to stop. Deere has trademark registrations for a number of goods and services, including mailboxes and license plates. Deere's trademark registration for mailboxes is 5708679.
So...what if the farmer's son simply wants to provide logo files to whoever wants them? Would he not simply be doing what Brands of the World has already been doing for a long time? This online logo library has been providing logo files to designers for the past 20 years! If you search Brands of the World for "John Deere" you will find more than a half dozen logo files for download, old and new.

Brad
 

Gino

Premium Subscriber
While that is all true, you still can't copy them legally. If the farmer puts it in his basement, silo or rooftop, it is still wrong. The OPs question was about someone coming to him, wanting him to print these logos. If money is made in any part, it is 100% illegal.

The determining factor in your thought pattern is....... although it's illegal, to what degree will I get caught ??

You being the person hitting the print button, collecting money will most definitely be in the wrong. Just don't tell people if they don't get caught, then it's alright.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
Unless approval comes from the main HQ of the business that owns the IP, it's illegal. Now odds of getting caught, blah blah blah, is something else entirely.

I've seen some people suggest getting a waiver from the customer wanting the product produced. If that customer doesn't have permission to use it anyway, how can they sign away rights of the legitimate owners? And if they can legitimately sign permission, then this whole conversation is moot as it is.

Now, the tricky thing is, what about dealerships, what about people that are connected to the business? Even then approval must come from HQ. The main company may have contracts already in place that have to be honored (JD for sure does). Just because a GM comes into your business wanting it printed, doesn't mean that they have permission to do so from HQ. The odds are higher in their favor that they do, but that doesn't mean that they do.

John Deere is huge around here (shoot, I'm even a collector of JD swag), very easy to make a small fortune on JD stuff alone.

My policy is, if they can't show permission from the home office that they are able to have it reproduced, it doesn't happen, not from me.
 

Andy D

Active Member
So let's be honest & "keep it real"... We all know that the big name guys logos and art are protected, but who here
doesn't have have (for example) "Joe Schmo Plumbing" come in with a business card, that has a simple logo someone created,
and he wants a sign or vehicle graphics with his logo on it... Are you really going to turn away work rather than just recreate it?
It's still someones artwork, why isn't it just as protected as Harley Davidson or Disney's?
 

Andy D

Active Member
Hypathical Joe Schmo probably has no clue who created the logo 20 years ago & has no appreciation for the time or talent that went into his logo, that has been making him money.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
It's still someones artwork, why isn't it just as protected as Harley Davidson or Disney's?

Typically those companies have gone the extra mile in "hardening" the protection of their logos. Extra step of registering (trademark and/or copyright) is not necessary, but it does provide an extra level of protection, so yes I highly doubt that a lot of "brands" are going to be as protected as HD and/or Disney. That and the mere fact of the money behind those brands as well.

If Joe Schmo can only be bothered to hand in a business card with the "logo" on it (even though other files, even master file may be within their possession), I highly doubt the extra step of registering has been done. That alone would make it just a little bit less protected compared to those that do go through those extra steps.

Hypathical Joe Schmo probably has no clue who created the logo 20 years ago & has no appreciation for the time or talent that went into his logo, that has been making him money.

Does that really come as a surprise when a lot of people leave branding to the very last minute with very little budget to work with? If they do that, they aren't going to go through the extra steps to protect their investment.

However, if Joe Schmo paid in full the logo with transfer of rights, they don't have to remember who created their logo as they own the rights. It all depends on if that transfer of ownership has happened or not.
 

Bobby H

Arial Sucks.
Bobby H said:
company's latest branding and signage manuals
JBurton said:
I'd be wary of using this as a justification. It's pretty easy to come across someone like Harley's graphic standards with a few google searches.

You might have skipped over the extremely important part of my post where the person asking for the graphics had to be EMPLOYED DIRECTLY somehow by that company.

You're insulting my intelligence by assuming our sign company would ever do something like sell Harley-Davidson graphics to someone not running a Harley-Davidson dealership, much less produce sign work that wasn't subject to Harley-Davidson corporate approval. I've done work for Harley-Davidson dealerships before, here in Lawton under a couple dealership name changes and a couple others elsewhere in Oklahoma and North Texas. I'm pretty familiar with how jealously protective they are of their branding. And I don't blame them. Because a bunch of wannabe graphics people out there just go way out of their way to totally f*** up corporate logos and generally disregard usage rules. And that doesn't even get into the issue of illegal merchandising sales.

And, by the way, Google searches for branding standards can be very very suspect. If you just go web-crawling for logos and branding manuals, unless you're very careful you may not end up with the latest, approved standards. I've personally run into cases where I had to be given a temporary account with user name and password to access a company's branding manuals and corresponding vector logo files. I take the situation of dealing with major corporate branding systems very very seriously. And I never ever assume that the standards I used on one job from that company a couple years ago are still going to be current today.
 
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WildWestDesigns

Active Member
....unless you're very careful you may not end up with the latest, approved standards. I've personally run into cases where I had to be given a temporary account with user name and password to access a company's branding manuals and corresponding vector logo files. I take the situation of dealing with major corporate branding systems very very seriously. And I never ever assume that the standards I used on one job from that company a couple years ago are still going to be current today.

Going back to John Deere, I knew of one vendor that was selling pre-digitized logos. They started doing this back in the 90s (I think they have recently stopped doing it, given how much they vehemently believed their defense, I have to wonder if something happened) and they still used a version of the logo from the 90s that they were selling well into last decade.

The thing is though, going to back this:

sell Harley-Davidson graphics to someone not running a Harley-Davidson dealership

There are times that those people may not even have permission to use a 3rd party like use instead of ones that they already have contracts for. There are circumstances that allow for it, but not in every single case. That seems to trip up a lot of people as well. Have to remember a dealership doesn't actually own those logos either, otherwise, you'll get different aesthetics from someone in Washington State versus someone in Florida. Which negates some of the benefits of having a standard brand to begin with.
 

Notarealsignguy

Arial - it's almost helvetica
Most corporations and manufacturers have marketing portals with their logos and other collateral for whoever in the company to use as needed. As long as its used for the company, it doesnt matter who sends it.
If they already have vendors setup and arent supposed to use other people, that is between that person and their boss.
Having to send in signage for corporate approval or not following branding isnt copyright infringement either. Thats another contractural issue between the person who ordered the sign and the franchise or corporate office.
Trademark and copyright protection stops people from using that collateral on things that arent genuine. Napa cant sell yellow filters with a cat logo on them. You cant start a motorcycle shop and stick a big harley sign out front or sell disney tshirts at the flea market. You also cant buy a legally authorized harley decal and use it on the front of your used bike dealer as a sign either, even if you bought it straight from Harley.
Im not saying that you cant be sued for it but it would be a tough case for ford to prove damage or confusion when you made a sign for your local ford dealer to be used at his dealership to sell ford products. They have rights in their contracts as well.
 

WildWestDesigns

Active Member
If they already have vendors setup and arent supposed to use other people, that is between that person and their boss.

We are required to do a reasonable amount of inquiry to make sure everything is on the up and up.

It all comes down to permissions, who has it and who can give it.


Im not saying that you cant be sued for it but it would be a tough case for ford to prove damage or confusion when you made a sign for your local ford dealer to be used at his dealership to sell ford products. They have rights in their contracts as well.

Breach of existing contracts usually comes with costs (or damages). Contracts do get breached all the time, that's why there are usually clauses to deal with that (as well as clauses that give a legit reason to breach), but breaches without cause, usually do come with damages.

Always best to make sure "your" end is covered.
 
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