Notarealsignguy
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Copyright and trademark laws come down to usage, not production. The law doesnt specify who can give permission or that its needed at all.
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Copyright or Trademarked Printing
- Thread starter AGinVT
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WildWestDesigns
Active Member
When some things aren't explicitly stated in the law itself, have to go to what has been determined in individual cases. That's were things get firmly cemented.
A reasonable person would conclude that owners of said property would be able to give permission. At least that's what I would think, maybe I'm off my rocker.
Now, let's think of it this way, lets assume that it's only usage. If "you" produce something for someone that is using it a bad way (whatever that may be), did "you" not contribute to said usage? Making it easier for them to perpetuate that bad usage? Would "you" not be be in some form responsible, since "you" did make it easier for them to do whatever bad thing that it was that they did? And you did have control over finding out if it was legal or illegal usage (within reason mind you, not going to the ends of the earth to find out).
Now, while printers in of themselves make things easier to do illicit printings etc, that's not what they were created for and what people do with them after the sale (this was actually detemined in the Betamax case back in the early-mid 80s), the OEM has no control over (this is what got Napster in trouble back in the day as they claimed they had no control, when it was going through their servers, while bit torrent in of itself isn't illegal and actually very efficient from a download perspective, that is all about how one uses it). The music industry is filled with testing of laws like this, why most examples are related to those.
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Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
I agree that you can be dragged into something that you dont want to be and need to be very cautious. If the manager of the local walmart asked for some no tresspassing signs with the walmart logo and the job was billed to walmart, I wouldnt think twice about it. If the neighboring gas station owner came over and asked for a bunch of walmart stickers I wouldnt get involved for the exact reason you said.
I just think this gets blown out of proportion when this topic comes up and people act like you need a notorized letter from the board of directors to use their logo on a sign for their company.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
It's a simple paper that states, what form you'll be reproducing it in, how (typically to their brand guidelines that can be approximated with "your" production method, although some places actually have specific files setup for the most common production methods and tested against those methods as well, so they know that it works) "you'll" be producing it and what time frame "you'll" be able to reproduce it. These should be standard contracts that are printed on demand. Going through the BoD is not necessary. This usually has been solved by them in some capacity already (or done before there was a need of a BoD).
In some instances, I've even gotten NDAs to accompany those contracts and the NDA typically lasts a whole lot longer compared to the contract to produce the item(s).
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
You know, if one is all about playing the odds (which would bring about other concerns in my mind), in the days before social media, something like that would have been really under the radar, but now since everything is posted on twitter/facebook etc and everyone is hashtag and tagged (whatever), it's not so much under the radar any more.
And I hardly doubt that would get you off the hook due to what's in bold.
I'm not saying that I agree with everything about the law or how the law is sometimes determined in cases, however even we take some protection from this as well. Our customers having to granted transfer of ownership of the files that we create. The EULAs that some have for their designs with regard to approval sheets etc. Now as to if the designer has the ability to follow through in exercising those protections is something else entirely.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I'm lost. Are we talking about can you do it legally or can you just plain do it ?? There's the big difference. 
If ya wanna do it and have the equipment to do it, go right ahead. I don't think anyone here is saying YOU CANNOT DO IT, we're just saying you shouldn't be if you're legit and law abiding.
I'm not a plumber, but I do some plumbing, at home. I'm not an excavator, but I can use a backhoe on my property. I'm not a professional bicyclist, but I know how to ride a bike. I know how to do a lotta things, but I don't cross the line and do things for other people. It's kinda like having properties for rent. You can do all the handiwork you want on your own home, but none of those that you rent out, unless you have proper licensing to do so.
If ya wanna do it and have the equipment to do it, go right ahead. I don't think anyone here is saying YOU CANNOT DO IT, we're just saying you shouldn't be if you're legit and law abiding.
I'm not a plumber, but I do some plumbing, at home. I'm not an excavator, but I can use a backhoe on my property. I'm not a professional bicyclist, but I know how to ride a bike. I know how to do a lotta things, but I don't cross the line and do things for other people. It's kinda like having properties for rent. You can do all the handiwork you want on your own home, but none of those that you rent out, unless you have proper licensing to do so.
Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
You dont need this.
These laws do not protect branding guidelines, its for usage. NDAs are not related to this either, thats a contract. If amazon (not a contractor) comes and says make me a pink logo for our delivery truck its fine. Amazon may tell that manager to take it off but you did not do anything wrong. If you have a contract with amazon that specifically says only use xyz colors and you dont, then thats breach of contract but not illegal. If you made these and sold them at the flea market, then it would be a problem.
If a guy starts building tractors in his garage, puts genuine oem decals from john deere on this tractor and put that tractor for sale, that would be infringement. It does not matter who what or where made the stickers. Its how they are used.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Nope. If you made a cent, creating and selling those decals, you are duplicating for a profit and have already violated the laws protecting them. The owners of the logo, trademark or file needs to know who, what and where these things are being made and for what purpose. You wanna violate those rules go ahead, but please do not twist things around to fit your needs.
Ya know, how right up front on this very forum, it states something about not being liable for ideas, answers and all kindsa other things discussed here can be associated or blamed on the site owner..... same thing. Ya have so many people on a forum like this, giving out BS answers, they cannot and won't be responsible for others dumbness. We went back & forth on that for months until the attorneys and committee agreed how that should be worded. That was to protect the innocent.
Therefore, like I said, if ya wanna make up your own interpretations go right ahead, but don't be spouting off like some things are Okay, when it's all in your head. It's not nice to fool with the law, especially when you put it in writing, as such a place like this.
Ya know, how right up front on this very forum, it states something about not being liable for ideas, answers and all kindsa other things discussed here can be associated or blamed on the site owner..... same thing. Ya have so many people on a forum like this, giving out BS answers, they cannot and won't be responsible for others dumbness. We went back & forth on that for months until the attorneys and committee agreed how that should be worded. That was to protect the innocent.
Therefore, like I said, if ya wanna make up your own interpretations go right ahead, but don't be spouting off like some things are Okay, when it's all in your head. It's not nice to fool with the law, especially when you put it in writing, as such a place like this.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Nope. If you made a cent, creating and selling those decals, you are duplicating for a profit and have already violated the laws protecting them. The owners of the logo, trademark or file needs to know who, what and where these things are being made and for what purpose. You wanna violate those rules go ahead, but please do not twist things around to fit your needs.
Ya know, how right up front on this very forum, it states something about not being liable for ideas, answers and all kindsa other things discussed here can be associated or blamed on the site owner..... same thing. Ya have so many people on a forum like this, giving out BS answers, they cannot and won't be responsible for others dumbness. We went back & forth on that for months until the attorneys and committee agreed how that should be worded. That was to protect the innocent.
Therefore, like I said, if ya wanna make up your own interpretations go right ahead, but don't be spouting off like some things are Okay, when it's all in your head. It's not nice to fool with the law, especially when you put it in writing, as such a place like this.
Ya know, how right up front on this very forum, it states something about not being liable for ideas, answers and all kindsa other things discussed here can be associated or blamed on the site owner..... same thing. Ya have so many people on a forum like this, giving out BS answers, they cannot and won't be responsible for others dumbness. We went back & forth on that for months until the attorneys and committee agreed how that should be worded. That was to protect the innocent.
Therefore, like I said, if ya wanna make up your own interpretations go right ahead, but don't be spouting off like some things are Okay, when it's all in your head. It's not nice to fool with the law, especially when you put it in writing, as such a place like this.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
No, but it comes with the statement that you have permission to reproduce the project and how you produce the project and for how long you are able to reproduce the product. It gives the all important permission, but it comes with caveats.
I didn't say that it was related. I said that I typically get these as well (not by my desire, but the companies send them along as well) along with permissions. Technically these are both contracts.
I would suggest a common law type of infringement be looked at. Contributory or Secondary infringement.
I'm paraphrasing here but essentially is does this person know or has reason to know about the infringement (in this case that would be direct infringement) and materially contributes or intentionally induces the direct infringement.
"Reason to know" can be a gotcha. For instance a John Deere dealership wants work done. I know that for my work, they have only 4 places that have the typically day to day stuff covered (unless that has changed). Odds are, I'm going to make sure that I make sure I'm covered here and that the dealership isn't doing something on their own and I'm getting involved.
Now, this is hearsay, as it didn't directly happen to me, but there was a person in my trade group that had a dealership wanting embroidery for the uniforms done for the employees. She called corporate to make sure that she could do that. They said no. Now, according to her, she got a call from another dealership wanted to do the same thing a few days later. She speculated that was more of a test since she was already on the radar.
I wasn't directly involved, so I can't validate the accuracy of this, but I wouldn't be surprised, but it's hearsay. I do think some places take this very seriously. Not something that I want to take a risk on. Ironically this entrepreneur is very much risk adverse. To each their own.
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Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
Case at hand, if he made that decal and sold it to that guy, thats infringement. If you had it in writing that you can make these for deere then this same guy walked in and you sold him one than that would be infringement. I think we all know the gray areas to stay away from.... and the customers to send down the roadI'm lost. Are we talking about can you do it legally or can you just plain do it ?? There's the big difference.
If ya wanna do it and have the equipment to do it, go right ahead. I don't think anyone here is saying YOU CANNOT DO IT, we're just saying you shouldn't be if you're legit and law abiding.
I'm not a plumber, but I do some plumbing, at home. I'm not an excavator, but I can use a backhoe on my property. I'm not a professional bicyclist, but I know how to ride a bike. I know how to do a lotta things, but I don't cross the line and do things for other people. It's kinda like having properties for rent. You can do all the handiwork you want on your own home, but none of those that you rent out, unless you have proper licensing to do so.
Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
If a company representative contacts you, sends you their logo, spells out what they want, gives you a po and pays the bill, what leg do they have to stand on claiming copyright infringement?
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
A "company representative" is a very broad term. Some have more "power", "authority" then others. However, if they are able to provide all that, they should be able to provide the permission paper as well. This piece of paper is nothing to provide. It isn't like some long lost treasure. And if you are dealing with a "representative" of the company that truly has all of the authority to make this purchase, it is exceptionally easy to get to. Now, if one can't be bothered to even ask, that's something else.
Every time I have asked for it, it has taken at most an hr to send the info to me if they didn't have it already. I have waited longer for answers to other questions or even for them to pick up their finished goods compared to when they said that they were going to do it.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
What you're stating is not what the OP was asking. However, in answer to your question..... NO, I would not...... and I do not do things haphazardly. Like WildWest stated, it only takes a minute to ask the appropriate questions and if they can't give you what you need, then you cannot do it. It's quite simple. Many people will tell you they are tax exempt. If they cannot fill in a certificate, do you still do it without tax ?? How long did that question take to get an answer ?? Now, if they give you a fake number, you still have it as you did all the correct things. Does some Joe Schmo signing a silly waiver count ?? Nope, there's nothing legal or documented legally with that paper.
Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
I think we all agree on most of this in principal, maybe my wording or examples werent the best. Waivers dont do anything and are not a good thing to rely on as stated.
As wildwest said, the people that control the branding guidelines and send them out generally have the authorization to do this. Companies that care more about keeping it tight, wont willy nilly send it out.
My disagreement is with who is responsible for determining who gives the authorization. I dont see how that falls on me. Just like a tax cert, you have to have it and verify it matches but what that person does with his tax exempt purchase is not your responisbility.
Generally speaking, you are liable for your employees decisions and purchases. You can step in and tell a vendor to stop or who is authorized for what but if you dont, its on you. If your secretary goes and orders a bunch of shirts for you with your logo on it, its kinda hard to go argue with the tshirt guy. How is he supposed to know?
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
The responsibility of what we need to do or not do is what is reasonable. Not supposed to go to the ends of the earth, but there is a responsibility to check. Even more so (may not should be, should be for all, but it is what it is) with your bigger brands. Those are the ones that I would be far more worried about then the smaller companies.
A man from a different department, but at the same place that my wife works at, his wife is one of my bigger digitizing customers and she was going to do one of his uniforms. Had permission had a logo to use. It was not exactly the same as the logo that is normally done for the uniforms, but still an acceptable one and from what I gather, is what is used with non traditional shops handle their uniforms (non traditional being not ones under contract).
With tax certs, from what I gather it's not just enough to know if they have it and fill out the form, but if this purchase does indeed qualify for that application of the tax cert. Not exactly all that hard to figure out.
Checking out all the stuff can be a headache, despite it not being all that hard, but it's cost of doing business. A lot of things we have to be on top of to run a business.
Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
I asked the sales tax question after the last thread about it. We were told that the responsibility falls on the person presenting the certificate. As long as we have the exemption cert on file, we are clear because we have no way to know or control what a person does with the product. All states are different of course but asked to be sure after seeing mixed opinions.
WildWestDesigns
Active Member
Talking about the Wisconsin one? Ironically, in that jurisdiction, it stated on the state's website have to make sure that the transaction in question qualifies for the use of the exemption. I cannot imagine there not being such caveats for all jurisdictions, but your right, different ones do have different conditions.
JasonToledo
New Member
Is this a bait forum?