copyrights and infringement

[stephenj148]

okay, so let me start off by saying i did searches on these and didn't really get the black and white to my answers.

I mostly do work in motocross graphics. My main question is if I can use logos I get off of brandsoftheworld.com on graphics that I have made for people that are sponsored by that company.

What are the laws on using logos on your artwork?

Sorry for the newbie question, but I have not yet fully gained an understanding for copyright laws..

 

[Vinylman]

If you use ANY copy written material without express written authorization, you can be sued! And most likely WILL BE. If not immediately, at some time in the future. Do you want to take your future, and the future of your family and flush it? Then use copy written material at your own peril.

It is THAT simple.

Another way to know if you should or shouldn't.

It is called a "gut check". Anyone with a modicum of integrity knows internally when something is "wrong". If you don't understand, then you WILL experience the future pain of legal action and the resuls there of.

Good luck!

 

[inthesignbiz]

That is a slippery slope.

CYA

 

[stephenj148]

If you use ANY copy written material without express written authorization, you can be sued! And most likely WILL BE. If not immediately, at some time in the future. Do you want to take your future, and the future of your family and flush it? Then use copy written material at your own peril.

It is THAT simple.

Another way to know if you should or shouldn't.

It is called a "gut check". Anyone with a modicum of integrity knows internally when something is "wrong". If you don't understand, then you WILL experience the future pain of legal action and the resuls there of.

Good luck!

Thanks for that... I've always known about the seriousness of copyrighted materials, just don't know the ins and outs of everything.

What about fonts? Are fonts that are downloaded copyrighted? is using a certain font infringment?

how does one obtain rights to use logos and such.?

 

[Mosh]

If they are REALLY sponsored by a company they can get you an authorized logo from said company with use specs. We do it all the time with race cars. We get alot of people wanting Chevy and Ford logos on their cars, NO WAY.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Mosh is dead on right. If your customer is truly authorized, they will be able to supply you with approved versions of any sponsors marks. Brands of the World is not an authorized distributor of trademarked material. They do it because there is a demand from the uninformed. They do not in any way provide their users with any form of permission to use what they provide.

To simplify things, consider that every trademark is owned by the company being displayed or a parent company. It is their property and they generally only want it used in ways they have authorized. They will often provide specs with their marks pertaining to colors, usage etc. They have a stake in protecting it and most will act against infringements. Getting free advertising exposure, an often used argument by infringers, has absolutely no merit under the law or in the minds of the mark owners.

 

[stephenj148]

Why can't professors teach this stuff in classes. Really makes it difficult for someone who wants to run their own business.

FYI I'm 20 years old, trying to make what money I can off of graphics and what ever work I can get. Wish I knew as much as everyone else on here does.

I know it's over talked about and people don't seem to understand copyrights and it may make some of you frustrated about me asking again. But I'm trying to do the right things in my designs to avoid this.

 

[Mosh]

Just hang around this site and you will learn more than any professor can teach. In here you get REAL WORLD experience. I have 21 years under my belt (and I am only 37) and I learn stuff on here all the time.

 

[Techman]

I found that a call to the marketing dept of many companies will get you access to their press kits.

 

[ProWraps]

Why can't professors teach this stuff in classes.

they absolutely do. best thing i can tell you, is if a client doesnt come up to you with a branding guideline packet, then dont even bother.

if they do, verify its use, and move from there.

 

[Mosh]

Yeah, I gots sponsored by Bud Lite. I gots their log-oh in the back of my pickup, it is right there on them there empty 12 pack boxes. Can you print that on some team t-shirts fur me too. Oh, instead of paying you we can jist put yer name on my car. You knows it will gets you more customers jes like mees!

 

[G-Artist]

There are PLENTY of Intellectual Property guides that can be had for free via the Web. Many lawyer sites cover the various IP law topics (copyright, trademark and patent) along with current court rulings. Or you can purchase a inexpensive Nolo Press published guide on those subjects which are available in both paper and digital. Quite good for the price.

IP law isn't cut and dried. That's why IP lawyers are pretty much the second-highest paid right after criminal defense lawyers.

Companies like Disney, Jack Daniels, etc. not only go after the infringer but the whole chain as well. So, they sue the pirate selling non-authorized goods PLUS the sign/shirt/print shop that made them up.

Everyone should have a hold-harmless form that their customers have to sign if the customer supplies artwork. They attest that they are either the owners of the art and, if not, that they are licensed to use it. And that they will pay any and all legal expenses you incur.

Now that will not stop you, as the print provider, from being sued but it will show the court that you are merely an unwilling dupe and you may get dismissed from the suit after submitting that form to the court. It shows that you do not wish to infringe nor endanger your livelihood by doing so.

You don't have infringe on the big guys to get whacked. Let's say 10 years ago Sign Shop A developed a logo for a client and tossed it in for free to get some good sign work and he allowed the client to use it on his letterheads and business cards only. Today those signs are worn and faded and he gets a quote from you and you are the low bidder. Smart business guy that he is, he has a vector of the logo already to go (sign shop should have NEVER supplied that). Next week Sign Shop A's owner is traveling down the road and sees the brand new signs. Times are hard and there is money to be made in lawsuits. He hires a lawyer, they work out a contingency-fee arraignment and the business gets slapped with a law suit. During discovery they name you as the actual producer. You are added to the suit. You are both guilty and beside any award the court will order for the plaintiff (Sign Shop A) the court will probably award reasonable lawyer fees to the plaintiff as well. So even if you both only get slapped with a $500 payment each (min amt.) to the plaintiff, you are looking at $10k (on the low end) for the plaintiff 's lawyer plus court costs...all this transpires in Federal Court.

There are ways to make yourself judgement-proof but that is a topic for another day.

 

[Just Another Sign Guy]

You don't have infringe on the big guys to get whacked. Let's say 10 years ago Sign Shop A developed a logo for a client and tossed it in for free to get some good sign work and he allowed the client to use it on his letterheads and business cards only. Today those signs are worn and faded and he gets a quote from you and you are the low bidder. Smart business guy that he is, he has a vector of the logo already to go (sign shop should have NEVER supplied that). Next week Sign Shop A's owner is traveling down the road and sees the brand new signs. Times are hard and there is money to be made in lawsuits. He hires a lawyer, they work out a contingency-fee arraignment and the business gets slapped with a law suit. During discovery they name you as the actual producer. You are added to the suit. You are both guilty and beside any award the court will order for the plaintiff (Sign Shop A) the court will probably award reasonable lawyer fees to the plaintiff as well. So even if you both only get slapped with a $500 payment each (min amt.) to the plaintiff, you are looking at $10k (on the low end) for the plaintiff 's lawyer plus court costs...all this transpires in Federal Court.

There are ways to make yourself judgement-proof but that is a topic for another day.

Good Grief...

i'm having a hard time swallowing this 'scenario'.

now if you would have added that you had designed a logo for a client and presented them with a CONTRACT specifying limited useage and they deviated from the terms of that contract you may be able to prove damages but without a contract i would be surprised if you could find an attorney hungry enough to take on the case...

you can sue anyone for any damn fool thing you would like..that doesn't mean that you will win.

having been involved in a scenario somewhat similar to the situation spelled out in the scenario above. i designed a sign for a client they went on to use the design of that sign as their logo and placed it on every imaginable marketing piece, promotional product, etc.

my contract at the time had a clause in it saying that clients had the option to purchase the rights to use the artwork for other projects and that is the only thing that entitled me to any compensation.

the settlement was no where near $10K including lawyers fees (despite what happens on television the majority of cases are not settled Perry Mason style in front of a packed courtroom) I was asked what my charges would have been should i have sold them the rights to the artwork, the defense attorney got estimates from other companies, a 'happy' medium was agreed upon and the customer then owned the rights. i was awarded a small amount in addition...the purpose of litigation is to make you 'whole' that leaves a tremendous amount of room for interpretation but in all honesty...i was made whole. my attorney's costs were paid, i was paid as i would have been had they gone through the proper channels and that was it...i was made 'whole'.

but without a contract...well if you do not have proper contracts in place you should.

 

[cajun312]

I had a friend go to New Orleans yesterday, people selling bootleg Saints shirts out of the back of pick up trucks, on the street corners, mall parking lots, etc.
He stopped at one that sort of looked legit, saw that they were knockoffs, when he was walking back to his truck a New Orleans city cop pulls up so he asks the cop if he was here to arrest the guy for bootleg shirts, cop told him he was there to buy shirts and could care less if they were bootleg.

I would say only in New Orleans but it's probably going on in Indy and Miami also.

 

[G-Artist]

Sorry you had a hard time with that. That was a generalization of a case that took place.

Per the law, you don't need contract (read: legal agreement) except to assign or license in some manner the copyright to the logo. The copyright to the logo is held by the designer, assuming it was not a work for hire.

The AVERAGE copyright suit costs, per an American Bar Association survey, is in the mid-20K range and that figure was from a few years ago. Patent suits start at near twice that and range into the millions. IP law isn't cheap. It behooves everyone to settle out-of-court.

Since violation of the copyright statute is also a CRIME, the court can not only award the plaintiff his or her due but can treble the damages for a willful violation PLUS make the violator pay a fine in addition to the prevailing party's legal fees and awards. Now a logo case isn't as bad as bootlegging a few thousand CD's (prison time) but the sign shop could go bankrupt just because of the costs especially if they are working on a small margin. Plus the emotional toll is a bitch.

The OP mentioned fonts. Here is a chuckle about a pirated font.

http://fontfeed.com/archives/french-anti-piracy-organisation-uses-pirated-font-in-ownlogo/

 

[CentralSigns]

copyrights and asking for use

I have a customer that is having a little mermaid scene put on his 30 foot panel truck. He claims its all out there for the asking. Disney has approved his truck side designs and has given him the cash to have the graphic printed and installed. I'll let ya all know how it works out, as he is having me create it for him. I'll be checking out documentation on this one.

 

[Checkers]

Getting way off topic...

Central, I would have the client provide you with a copy of his "authorization" and I would still have him sign a "hold harmless/indemnity" disclaimer.

And, the topic that G-Artist and Dan S are discussing is a gray area. Although copyright protection is automatically granted to the creator, in the absence of a written agreement or signed contract, any design for a client can be construed as a "work for hire".

In simple terms, you must spell out on your invoice/contract that ownership of the design is NOT transferred when a client makes a purchase. Failure to do so can be interpreted as transfer of ownership of the design.

Remember though, I'm not an expert, I just play one on the internet

Checkers

 

[binki]

My main question is if I can use logos I get off of brandsoftheworld.com on graphics that I have made for people that are sponsored by that company. ...I have not yet fully gained an understanding for copyright laws...

Those would be trademarks, not copyright.

The main difference is if you are using trademark material and you are passing yourself off as an endorsed or 'official' product then you are a bootlegger and are trafficking counterfeit goods.

There is some case law that indicates that you could win in court if you did not hold yourself out as an official supplier, that the item had value to the purchaser to show allegiance to the mark holder such as a team or club, and that the mark holder did know you were doing this and did not try to stop you for a period of time.

 

[binki]

Here is a reference for TM infringement

http://www.bitlaw.com/trademark/infringe.html

To analyze whether a particular situation has developed the requisite "likelihood of confusion," courts have generally looked at the following eight factors:

the similarity in the overall impression created by the two marks (including the marks' look, phonetic similarities, and underlying meanings);
the similarities of the goods and services involved (including an examination of the marketing channels for the goods);
the strength of the plaintiff's mark;
any evidence of actual confusion by consumers;
the intent of the defendant in adopting its mark;
the physical proximity of the goods in the retail marketplace;
the degree of care likely to be exercised by the consumer; and
the likelihood of expansion of the product lines.

and here is a case reference where use of a trademark was upheld in appeals.

http://www.law.uconn.edu/homes/swilf/ip/cases/i_o_j_d.htm

 

[G-Artist]

Getting way off topic...

And, the topic that G-Artist and Dan S are discussing is a gray area. Although copyright protection is automatically granted to the creator, in the absence of a written agreement or signed contract, any design for a client can be construed as a "work for hire".
Checkers

I respectfully disagree, there is no grey area there.

"Works for Hire" has a set legal definition within the IP field and co-ordinates itself fairly much with the IRS definitions of employee vs. independent contractor as well.

There is a myriad of case law on 'works for hire' and the legal definition to same is solidly established.

If you sell a logo or an artwork you created then there is a presumed unlimited use (license) to a point by the original buyer. But, you, as the creator, own the copyright. If you did not charge for the logo/art as a line item on your invoice (regardless whether your invoice covered the cost of your time hidden elsewhere) then there is no presumed license. Therefor any further uses of that art on anything that does not go out your door would be a violation of your intellectual property rights in said art.