Corel Vs. Adobe....

[bob]

...
I don't want every dick and Jane grabbing a cheap software and claiming they can "photoshop this" or "illustrate that". It ruins the already overcrowded industry. If you can't afford the software, oh well. Leave it to the people that invested in school or busted tail to aquire the software and truly learn the tools...

May I enter this mildly entertaining chunk of bilge in an upcoming tortured reasoning competition, perhaps in the cart before the horse division?

A craftsman can use most anything at hand to good effect, from bloated over-hyped and overpriced software to a finger dipped in gorilla snot painting on a window.

If you really think that you cannot be effective unless you have whatever software you think is the top of the line then this would be prima facie evidence that you are a practicing hack. Tools do not make a professional in this or any other business. Skill and ability do. You can go to all the right schools and own all the right tackle and you're still a hack. Conversely you can have native ability and do journeyman work without either the schools or the high priced gear.

Just like you can go to schools and study music, learn all the notes, learn all the chord progressions, get a musical instrument and learn to operate it, but none of that is any indicator that you can make music. Doing music is much like professional design work and write commercial grade software, at the b9ttom line either you can do it or you can't. If you can't then regardless of education and equpage, you'll never be able to. But if you can, then education and artifacts are icing on the cake, you can do it with or without them.

 

[OldPaint]

AH HA...........BOB MADE A MISTAKE!!!!! b9ttom)))))))))))))))))))))

 

[JoshLoring]

Tools do not make a professional in this or any other business. Skill and ability do. You can go to all the right schools and own all the right tackle and you're still a hack.

Partially correct...
The schools part is right- I've seen many waste away in schools and come out with zero talent. It's not something you can be taught... It something you learn.

I'll greatly argue the tools part though. I couldn't do what I could in CS what I could in CS2. I damn well couldn't do things in CS3 I could in CS4. And If you sit and tell me that CS5 wasn't worth the investment... Then tell my clients that pay thousands for artwork created with the tools I use in CS5 such as pressure sensitive tablet painting or realistic 3D painting and animation. Where were those in CS....

 

[WildWestDesigns]

A craftsman can use most anything at hand to good effect, from bloated over-hyped and overpriced software to a finger dipped in gorilla snot painting on a window.

If you really think that you cannot be effective unless you have whatever software you think is the top of the line then this would be prima facie evidence that you are a practicing hack. Tools do not make a professional in this or any other business. Skill and ability do. You can go to all the right schools and own all the right tackle and you're still a hack. Conversely you can have native ability and do journeyman work without either the schools or the high priced gear.

You are still over emphasizing skill and ability over tools. It is a relationship of both. If you don't have the right tool there is only so much that you can do with it. Even in your example, the expert that showed you up is limited to the characteristic of makeshift tool. Even though he still beat you, I can promise you there were still things that he couldn't do with compared to having the right tool for the job.

Of course, the opposite is true, if you don't know what you are doing then having the best set of tools wouldn't mean that much to what you can accomplish.

But nothing hinders creativity more then not having the right tools for the job.

 

[weaselboogie]

I'll greatly argue the tools part though. I couldn't do what I could in CS what I could in CS2. I damn well couldn't do things in CS3 I could in CS4. And If you sit and tell me that CS5 wasn't worth the investment... Then tell my clients that pay thousands for artwork created with the tools I use in CS5 such as pressure sensitive tablet painting or realistic 3D painting and animation. Where were those in CS....

I'm still running 8 on my laptop and cs2 on my computer and have not had not seen an need for anything else. They both work well for pressure sensitive. Tools are only a small contributor of your final product. For what I've seen, there's a couple of new whistles and bell in the new cs versions, but nothing that I couldn't justify on the new purchase. These below were created in Photoshop 8 with a pressure sensitive tablet.

 

[WeekendDirectionals]

I enjoy reading this thread. I had the thought it is good there at least two choices. Keeps pressure on both not to go krazy on their prices increases as they aren't the only game in town.

 

[bob]

...
I'll greatly argue the tools part though. I couldn't do what I could in CS what I could in CS2. I damn well couldn't do things in CS3 I could in CS4. And If you sit and tell me that CS5 wasn't worth the investment... Then tell my clients that pay thousands for artwork created with the tools I use in CS5 such as pressure sensitive tablet painting or realistic 3D painting and animation. Where were those in CS....

That you have clients that pay exorbitant sums for your work is not an endorsement of that work, it simply means that they know even less than you. That as well as they might not know what they could have had for the same or perhaps less.

Merely because you are unable to do something without your trusty software does not mean that it cannot be done without it. What it means is it cannot be done the precise way this particular package does it. And/or that you're simply not sufficiently clever to figure out a way without using that specific artifact. Which is not at all surprising.

It does not mean that there are no other ways to get there from here or because you don't see a path that one can not/does not exist. The latter case being a manifestation of arrogance through ignorance. Rest assured that there are indeed ways to get there.

Albeit, some tools can help straighten the path and make the going easier but a competent operator without such help can navigate the curves and avoid the potholes and arrive at pretty much the same time as the less able relying on its set of marvelous tools.

The ability to get there from here pretty much regardless of what goodies might be available to ease the journey is a feature of the competent.

Conversely, reliance on some particular artifact to get you there, without which you couldn't make the trip, is a sure sign of fundamental incompetence.

Understand that I see nothing wrong with have the latest and greatest gear, merely that it's not necessary. Just sometimes convenient.

 

[ForgeInc]

Can you buy these outright or do you have to sign up for one of those month to month cloud subscription deals?

As I understand it, you can still but the software outright but you have to be on at least cs5 to be available for upgrade pricing. That said, I really don't understand all the uproar.

Aren't yearly software upgrades just a cost of doing business?

 

[Techman]

That said, I really don't understand all the uproar.

How about we are sick of the huge price increases and perceived gouging.

 

[Replicator]

BoB from Earth . . . Love ya buddy.
Your posts always make me smile . . . THANKS!!!!!

 

[JoshLoring]

These below were created in Photoshop tablet.

These are examples of excellent drawings. Great work. I won't argue that you know how to use the tools. But.. You can still do more with CS5. Your pressure sensitive tablet actually gains relevance in newer versions with artificial paint blending that you just won't get in earlier versions. Debate me forever.. Try the software and you will see.

That you have clients that pay exorbitant sums for your work is not an endorsement of that work, it simply means that they know even less than you.

This is stupid to argue. If you REALLY think this.. Tell Disney or Lucasfilms they charge to much and you can get the same thing from you for less.

Or can they... Hmm..

Albeit, some tools can help straighten the path and make the going easier but a competent operator without such help can navigate the curves and avoid the potholes.

Ya, and those people died on the Oregon trail. Now we fly there.... In planes! Tools are everything and he who was them, succeeds.

You are insane to think otherwise.

 

[royster13]

So it is okay for a sign maker to charge what they think their product is worth, but a software company can not.....The great thing about a "free market" is you can tell Adobe to "pound salt" if you want to....800.00 a year is "chump change" compared to what I pay for processing credit cards....Or for you folks with printers, what about ink? Seems to me the cost of software is so minor, it does not deserve the attention it is getting....

 

[JoshLoring]

So it is okay for a sign maker to charge what they think their product is worth, but a software company can not.....

Everything you said was great.. But this hits it dead on.

 

[GB2]

Here is a question for anyone that will be paying for an adobe subscription: Let say you go that route for 4 or 5 years, then decide to use some alternative to adobe. When you stop paying the subscription, will you still be able to use whatever version you were last using? If not, can you still open those newer version files on an older non subscription based version? I'm confused on how that works.

This is a good question that I wonder about with subscription software, when the day comes that you don't continue the subscription then is your whole archive of data gone or useless? Well I guess if you think about it, the answer is evident. Certainly your data files won't be gone, you'll still have them you just won't have any software to open them. Also, depending on what software you are talking about, you probably won't be able to use older versions to open newer version files.

 

[ForgeInc]

How about we are sick of the huge price increases and perceived gouging.

Is it really a price increase though? I did a quick search and the purchase prices seem to be about the same. I have always thought Adobe products are overpriced, but they know a lot more than I do about their business and how much they need to charge to stay successful.

I know i will not be doing the cloud license as I don't think it makes sense when you can still buy the software outright for what seems like the same price. I have a feeling most people will do the same, and this whole idea will backfire on em just like netflix. Time will tell though...

That said any printer that consistently outputs anything from client supplied files will need to constantly upgrade anyway, so maybe it takes sense for the larger shops. Every user will need to crunch numbers and decide what's best for them.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

That said any printer that consistently outputs anything from client supplied files will need to constantly upgrade anyway, so maybe it takes sense for the larger shops. Every user will need to crunch numbers and decide what's best for them.

This too depends on the shop. 90% of what I get for embroidery is some type of raster file. I have to go in anyway and manually digitize it to work for me, so I can still use version 3 if need be (for my embroidery software, that is not Ai version 3).

Now going back to bob's statement about the latest and greatest smoothing out potholes and making things easier (or quicker). Sometimes that's the tool that you need to have to help be competitive.

Take the file rendered here http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?t=87875 (from premium section, so it will depend on your membership level). There are two ways that I could have generated that "gradient" effect for embroidery. One is by a stitch by stitch approach(which I do know how to do, just so you don't think I'm handicapped by the software). To do exactly what I did there, you are looking about a couple of hours (it doesn't look like much from an outsider, but more goes into it to do it correctly then you would think) versus 10 minutes doing it with my software using what they call "accordion spacing". Either way I do it I get paid the same, so the quicker I am in doing it benefits everyone, from the customer having a quicker turnaround time to me for not lingering on with one pattern too long and I am then able to get through a few more in the same time that it would have taken me to do that one effect for that one pattern.

Sometimes more goes into it then just what is sufficient to get the job done. Features play more into it, then some give credit for. However, this does depend on what the individual shop's needs are and what tools will help them accomplish that. Now I'm not going to get into the always need to upgrade end of this conversation as that depend on the needs of the individual shop and sometimes those needs dictate that approach.

 

[Bobby H]

If Adobe and Corel charged 20k for their software, only real agencies would buy it. The rest would look at other career options. Raise it. Raise it raise it.

If Adobe and Corel priced their software sky high enough so that only agencies could buy it Adobe and Corel would both put themselves out of business. The user base would be so tiny their cash flow level would be squeezed down to a mere trickle.

Another point to consider: lot of amateurs passing themselves off as graphic designers are using illegally acquired software. There's no limit to the number of computer geeks out there who collect all sorts of high priced graphics software and trade it with friends even if they never actually use it. It isn't just Adobe apps that are being traded either. AutoCAD, Maya, etc. You name it and the downloaders are trading it.

I don't like the warez thing either. I have been paying good money to Adobe for my own personal licenses to Photoshop, Illustrator and a variety of other applications for going on 20 years. Now I have Master Collection CS 5.5. The sad thing is the warez folks look at honest software customers as stupid chumps. The truly anger inspiring thing is when those amateurs start using the illegally acquired graphics software to chase after graphics job. I paid for my four year art school degree and my software in part to be a truly legit graphic designer and illustrator. Those amateurs didn't pay for anything.

 

[Colin]

I haven't read the four pages of replies, but my opinion is to have the latest CorelDraw (X5) and the latest Illy (CS5.5). Use the one you are most familiar with, but you will be able to handle all the files you might receive from design firms, and you'll never have to say: "Can you save that in an older version please".

For years I was stuck on my old (ancient) ScanVec Inspire software for all vinyl & design work, and CorelDraw 12 for printing and other stuff. This on a tiring XP machine. I just spent some dough on a new Win7 Pro 64 bit 6-core 'puter, and the Adobe CS 5.5 "Design Standard" suite, and X5, and I'm elated. Photoshop (64 bit) opens and is ready to go in about 2 seconds. I am also impressed with X5's vectorizing capabilities. I've never spent much time in Illy, but boy does it feel good when a high-end design firm sends me a file.

Also bought Office 2010, and Outlook is sweet compared to the Outlook Express I was using on the old machine. And again, if & when someone sends me a newer Word doc, Powerpoint or Excel file? No problema.

 

[GAC05]

"if & when someone sends me a newer Word doc, Powerpoint or Excel file? No problema. "

If someone sends me one of these as "artwork" I'm telling Santa to take them off the "nice" list.....

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Colin]

Heh heh, no, I mean for other stuff.