Dang you IJ35C!

[john1]

I had another customer come back today saying that their window decals i made them are lifting around the edges. I installed this job in September and ANOTHER job i installed in April is doing the same.

I used IJ35C with 8509 laminate. It seems they both happened within the last month and that's when it has gotten the coldest around here.

I have used 3651 with 210 laminate no problems, Concept 203 with 210 with no problems but switches to 3M as i thought it was priced really good with the Comply adhesive. Heck there is a 3 year old job out there i did with 3651/210 laminate that looks flawless as i see it from time to time and i cannot get this 3M stuff to last 1 year.

Is 3M my problem or what guys?

Thanks!

 

[FatCat]

Hmm, after using 3651 with 210 almost religiously for the past 3 years on most of my intermediate stuff I was just contemplating trying out the IJ35 because it's about $25/roll cheaper than the 3651. Maybe now I won't...

*Sorry for your troubles, hopefully someone else can chime in with some better feedback.

 

[Tim Aucoin]

IJ35C is my main "house vinyl". I haven't experienced these issues thus far...
Are you solvent printing or Latex? Wondering if you just have a bad batch (or an old batch). I'd also say a cold install is the culprit, but you installed in warm temperatures obviously...! What are the conditions like at the install site? Are they getting full sun or full shade? Sometimes these mysteries require a lot of Sherlock Holmes type investigating!!

 

[Fred Weiss]

IJ35Cis an intermediate class calendared film described as for "promotional use" which is code for short term. The comparative rating is five years but you will not get that in some application environments ... which is apparently what you are running into.

From 3M's tech bulletin:

Film series IJ35C are 3.2-mil vinyl films with a permanent, pressure-sensitive adhesive and air release channels for easier, bubble-free application. They are designed for solvent and UV-based inkjet printing as well as screen printing where a good quality film is needed for short to long-term, indoor and outdoor promotional graphics. Possible uses include signs, trade show and point-of-purchase displays, exhibits and architectural applications.

I've made it a practice for 28 years now to only use cast films on installations where I am looking for durability.

 

[signage]

I've made it a practice for 28 years now to only use cast films on installations where I am looking for durability.

The only way to do it correctly!

 

[Techman]

only use cast films on installations where I am looking for durability.

Ya mean???? you wouldn't use the cheap stuff to save about $4.56 on a job?

I mean that economy roll of material is $25 bux cheaper and that saves me a lot of money. Well actually it makes me $25.00 a roll. I know that's not a lot to many here but I only use a roll about every 4 months. So $25 means a lot to me.
/sarcasm off.

 

[HulkSmash]

The sad part is that... people charge cast prices for intermediate vinyl. That's the competition i deal with. It's ok they always come back in the end....

John i told you stop using ij35 for vehicles months ago. and the 8509 "laminate" Is actually just a pvc clear film that is printable that has barely any uv protection in it... and 3m has the balls to label it lam... sad

 

[john1]

Yeah IJ35C sucks, i will not beg to differ either.

I have used like i said 3651/210 and Concept 203/210 and it has held up GREAT no peeling, no cracking, no fading and i have some out there a few years old. I can't even get IJ35C to last over a few months.

I know a lot of people have no issues with it but i can only speak from my experience and it hasn't been good. Cast or calendered it should last more than a few months if the others similar to it are holding up well.

Pricing on a economy vinyl/lam combo and cast is a HUGE difference and is a overkill for the jobs i do. If i need anything printed on cast i just outsource it to a vendor i use which is very rare. I know it's hard for the guys here to grasp not being able to stock cast vinyl which costs $600 a combo but if your not using but a few full rolls a year it's another story.

 

[HulkSmash]

cast combo is much more then 600.

And i DO understand man. We all started somewhere.. but using the wrong stuff won't help your business grow. Give them quality! They will always return for more. I only use ij35 on yard signs, and other short term signage. noting too long term. I hope you get everything sorted out!

You know why the formulations stuff doesn't peel up? cause that stuff has super glue for adhesive. give it a while more it will be cracked, and the lam will eventually shrink away from the vinyl. it will look awful.
I for one think that oracle 210 lam is good enough for flat surfaced installs. Nothing more.

 

[Patentagosse]

Running on Oracal line-up for the last 8 years w/o any issue. Used some 3M but only the premium ones (IJ180 - IJ680) and realized they only cost me more than Oracal, no real advantages. They print nice, they install easily but no better than Oracal. To save $25/roll, you learned it the hard way (I figure you'll get over there to replace defective material...)

 

[john1]

All in all i am happy with the formulations vinyls for what i use them for. Maybe the 8509 was my problem all along, I will request a sample of another laminate and see how it works from 3M, Which one is a REAL lam Colorado?

I really do wish i was as busy and could stock a cheap vinyl then a high end vinyl like some of you guys but right now i am not. I don't see having $5-600 of vinyl sitting there barley getting used since it all has a shelf life of 6-12 months i believe.

The jobs i do mostly on the printed vinyls are coro signs, bulk orders of print/cut stickers and some window graphics here and there. The vinyl i been using works great for it as they are low value jobs anyway. Yes it shrinks after some time but for what these jobs are it has worked great and allows me to price it nicely for the customer who doesn't see much value in the job anyway.

I just ordered the concept vinyl and lam combo from Grimco because i'm not chancing the 3M stuff anymore and have some reprints to do.

Like i said, Anything that needs cast i will outsource it to my vendor but i can't justify stocking the cast stuff right now.

 

[mgieske]

We had the exact same problem with print/cut on our latex and no longer use IJ35.
No prob with other films.

 

[MindsEyeOpen]

I had previously been using Oracal 3640/210 as my main "cheap" vinyl. I read some good reviews of the IJ35C-10 so I decided to try that along with the 8509. We've been using it for about three months now with no issues but the posts here are starting to make me nervous.

 

[coastalsign]

We have been having the same issue with IJ35C and 8508 gloss lam. Specific issues include edge curling and shrinkage. This seems to be most prominent on Print and Cut lettering jobs where full color is bled out and less of or not an issue at all with white edges.
Failing edges have come back to us on flat glass as well.
We tried the 35 a long time ago and were printing solvent inks on Mimaki at the time we started.
We recently switched to Latex and seem to have the same issue.
Problems and complaints started coming in about 6 months after installs.
Everything we installed 35 on was flat surfaces.
We are using our remaining stock of 35 for flat panel signs with no major duration requirements.

 

[rjssigns]

Anything outdoors is always IJ180 with 8519 for prints or ElectroCut for solid colors. Vehicles, windows, windsurf gear etc...
Unless it is temporary advertising then we use a Kapco 4 mil calendered with no lam. Good product and holds like a pitbull.

 

[john1]

The price point for the IJ180 isn't good enough for super small shops like mine. Anything i need cast digital vinyl for i outsource to a vendor i can count on. I have stopped using IJ35 and now am using what i started with that works GREAT. General Formulations Concept 201 and 203 cal

 

[rjssigns]

Cool. Stay with what works. Less headaches all the way around.

 

[AnotherSignManiac]

I have been using IJ35C for about a year and a half now without any issues but one. We printed decals that a customer put on her car and lifted around the edges. We of course reprinted on cast w/ cast lam for her. Other than that it works great!

 

[WYLDGFI]

Ive given up on trying to use 8509 Lam. I had a feeling that was part of the issue with a past job I did for someone. Using Oraguard 210 on the IJ35C and going very well with it now.

 

[boxerbay]

If your using IJ35C you need to post heat it. C=comply meaning the glue has ridges in it to allow the air to escape. it also means water and humidity can get in the same ridges if you don't post heat it just like IJ180C. We use IJ35C all the time. We love it. It runs really flat - no head strikes and it super easy to work with when mounting on foamboard.