Declining jobs based on moral/ethical grounds

[StephenOrange]

I could say the same thing about a person who decides that someone God has created doesn't need to exist anymore.

So without fighting about this (like somebody here said, this isn’t facebook), I do find your view severely short sighted. Without even removing god from your view, how do you account for girls being raped every single day by family, strangers, or people in authority over them? With keeping god in the argument, you naturally HAVE to allow for evils done on to people by a devil. Allowing that girl to remove an evil acted upon her by satin would be allowing god to do his work - surely? It’s a logical approach for faith based concerns around this topic.
These horific rapes happen here in my country, and every other country in the world. It is horrible, truthful fact.
Would you deny an abortion to a 12 year old girl that was raped repeatedly by her own farther?? Again, this actually happens, your “side’s” argument just seems to always skirt around even this obvious fact.
That’s not even touching on the subject of laws made to govern a woman’s own body, but primarily made by men.
I don’t know you, but I’m willing to put good money on the fact that you do stuff that god doesn’t want you to do.
Again, really really not picking a fight with anyone-I’m just chatting. The topic posed by the poster was bound to raise moral issues with strong feelings.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

What's with you guys and the rape? When did I say aborting rape wasn't ok?

 

[StephenOrange]

What's with you guys and the rape? When did I say aborting rape wasn't ok?

Hey, common? Nobody said you have no issue with rape. Without knowing you I’d put money on the chance that you would come to the defence of someone being raped. I certainly didn’t imply anything along those lines. But you’re not responding to the main issue or you’re completely missing the point being made. And of course rape is always going to come up, because the laws don’t make allowances for these cases. You yourself said you would like to print all the Closed signs. Where does that leave a woman or girl who’s gone through that trauma?
But let’s leave rape aside, I know it’s a difficult one to defend in this context on your side (I mean that respectfully)
What about a pair of young kids? Sometimes things just happen - they don’t need to be from broken families or have any kind of underlying issues. Just kids who got themselves into a situation they could never understand. Girl is way to young to have a child. What then?
Or the other one “your side” seems to sidestep often - medical conditions with the pregnancy. I don’t know if you’re married, but what would you do if a month or two in the doctors advise of a sure risk of preeclampsia or worse. Would you knowingly let your wife face death, knowing that you could rather abort now and try again when she’s ready.
Or the case of a fetus showing clear signs of severe medical issues early on?
All of these are real situations, but I struggle to understand why it needs to be even debated - a woman’s body is hers and hers alone. Men struggle to understand the issue here, nobody is forcing us to do anything our bodies.
Texas_Signmaker, I really, genuinely don’t want to have a fight about this. A civil urgument or debate is cool by me, but I know these discussions turn ugly where religion is at the crux of the matter.
So maybe we just drop the topic and concentrate on the readon we’re all here - I’m sure on that front we’ll have more than enough to be friendly about.

 

[Stacey K]

Hey, common? Nobody said you have no issue with rape. Without knowing you I’d put money on the chance that you would come to the defence of someone being raped. I certainly didn’t imply anything along those lines. But you’re not responding to the main issue or you’re completely missing the point being made. And of course rape is always going to come up, because the laws don’t make allowances for these cases. You yourself said you would like to print all the Closed signs. Where does that leave a woman or girl who’s gone through that trauma?
But let’s leave rape aside, I know it’s a difficult one to defend in this context on your side (I mean that respectfully)
What about a pair of young kids? Sometimes things just happen - they don’t need to be from broken families or have any kind of underlying issues. Just kids who got themselves into a situation they could never understand. Girl is way to young to have a child. What then?
Or the other one “your side” seems to sidestep often - medical conditions with the pregnancy. I don’t know if you’re married, but what would you do if a month or two in the doctors advise of a sure risk of preeclampsia or worse. Would you knowingly let your wife face death, knowing that you could rather abort now and try again when she’s ready.
Or the case of a fetus showing clear signs of severe medical issues early on?
All of these are real situations, but I struggle to understand why it needs to be even debated - a woman’s body is hers and hers alone. Men struggle to understand the issue here, nobody is forcing us to do anything our bodies.
Texas_Signmaker, I really, genuinely don’t want to have a fight about this. A civil urgument or debate is cool by me, but I know these discussions turn ugly where religion is at the crux of the matter.
So maybe we just drop the topic and concentrate on the readon we’re all here - I’m sure on that front we’ll have more than enough to be friendly about.

I can't speak for everyone but I think "most" people against abortion have the biggest issue with the abortions that are done after 12 weeks. "Most" don't have an issue with abortions due to rape or medical issues either.

With that being said...now you have this other area you speak about...the young kids and people that "make mistakes". I become conflicted when I think about the people who don't have nice families like me. My parents would be mad but would NEVER disown me, beat me, kill me, or perform a coat hanger abortion in the closet. I can't say that for everyone - those are the girls and women I worry about. There are some very, very bad parents out there and some very bad families.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

a woman’s body is hers and hers alone. Men struggle to understand the issue here, nobody is forcing us to do anything our bodies.

That's another thing I don't agree on. IF we accept abortion as legal, why is it 100% the woman's choice to have the baby? If they want to make it fair, the father (who legally is responsible for 50% of that baby) should have and equal amount of say.

It doesn't have to turn ugly as long as everyone is civil.

 

[eggnog316]

So without fighting about this (like somebody here said, this isn’t facebook), I do find your view severely short sighted. Without even removing god from your view, how do you account for girls being raped every single day by family, strangers, or people in authority over them? With keeping god in the argument, you naturally HAVE to allow for evils done on to people by a devil. Allowing that girl to remove an evil acted upon her by satin would be allowing god to do his work - surely? It’s a logical approach for faith based concerns around this topic.
These horific rapes happen here in my country, and every other country in the world. It is horrible, truthful fact.
Would you deny an abortion to a 12 year old girl that was raped repeatedly by her own farther?? Again, this actually happens, your “side’s” argument just seems to always skirt around even this obvious fact.
That’s not even touching on the subject of laws made to govern a woman’s own body, but primarily made by men.
I don’t know you, but I’m willing to put good money on the fact that you do stuff that god doesn’t want you to do.
Again, really really not picking a fight with anyone-I’m just chatting. The topic posed by the poster was bound to raise moral issues with strong feelings.

What's your take on assisted suicide then? If it's my body, my choice, then a person should have the legal right to end their own life.

Why is physician assisted suicide illegal but abortion is ok? using that logic

 

[Bobby H]

That's another thing I don't agree on. IF we accept abortion as legal, why is it 100% the woman's choice to have the baby? If they want to make it fair, the father (who legally is responsible for 50% of that baby) should have and equal amount of say.

With unplanned pregnancies far more often than not it is the biological father pushing for an abortion. Not the mother. The man doesn't want to be saddled with child support payments, among other obligations like suddenly having to be a parent. Many pregnant women have been beaten up and even murdered over the situation.

A lot of implied slut-shaming goes on in discussions about abortion. Certain pro-life activists (typically men) like to say women are using abortion as a means of birth control. I have local friends who spout this BS. That argument could not be more out of touch. They like to think it's such an easy decision for a woman to decide to terminate a pregnancy. The procedure isn't exactly cheap. Access is not easy; clinics that perform abortions aren't exactly on every street corner, even in "blue" states.

Basically my new stance has been "if you don't support abortion, how many kids are you ready to foster for the betterment of society?"

Exactly. Too many "pro life" people are really only pro-fetus. Once the baby is born it turns into a negative drain on taxpayer dollars. Hence all the attacks on government funding/aid for early child health care and day care, not to mention public education in general.

Not that much of this matters. Young adults are having less sex. Pregnancies are going way down. The United States is in the early years of what could be a dramatic "baby bust." Parenthood has turned into an extremely expensive lifestyle choice. More teens and young adults are getting increasingly skilled at avoiding it. Parenthood for so many of them is an instant gateway into poverty. If current birth rate trends in the US continue we'll be suffering serious to severe demographic imbalance in 10-20 years. We'll have too many old people and not nearly enough of a working age tax base to keep the nation afloat.

Not to answer for steve here, but I myself think it's a underappreciated option here in the states. Right to die with dignity, without negative legal effects/terrifying 'procedure' is something all these old farts at the capitol should be thinking about more seriously...

Dying in the United States is big freaking business for our nation's health care system and a number of other related industries. Letting someone die on their own terms in a controlled manner rather than languishing in a costly medical facility goes against that business model.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Did he say he didn't support assisted suicide?
Not to answer for steve here, but I myself think it's a underappreciated option here in the states. Right to die with dignity, without negative legal effects/terrifying 'procedure' is something all these old farts at the capitol should be thinking about more seriously...
Dying with family around on a selected day sounds a good deal nicer than randomly on the shitter when your liver nopes out. But then you'd see who in your family really cares enough to make a trip to be with you when you die. "Well, verbal addendum, f*ck uncle randy, he's an ***, shall be read with my will"

Because, the healthcare providers won't be able to bill your insurance to keep you alive those last remaining sick days.

edit:: just saw Bobby's comment... seems I'm not the only one thinking that.

 

[StephenOrange]

What's your take on assisted suicide then? If it's my body, my choice, then a person should have the legal right to end their own life.

Why is physician assisted suicide illegal but abortion is ok? using that logic

Well, I think it is a person’s choice for assisted suicide. I might be wrong, but there are some countries that are waking up to this choice and have made it legal. We might not like it, family might not agree, but it’s mostly for well-meaning selfish reasons that others want to keep you around while cancer eats away at your body. I think way to many of us have seen family and friends slowly killed by cancer for no good reason.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

If people would mind their own business the world would be a better place.
When it comes to the whole notion of you can't tell me what to do, people are very hypocritical.

 

[StephenOrange]

That's another thing I don't agree on. IF we accept abortion as legal, why is it 100% the woman's choice to have the baby? If they want to make it fair, the father (who legally is responsible for 50% of that baby) should have and equal amount of say.

It doesn't have to turn ugly as long as everyone is civil.

Not really a fair split given that the man can walk away at any point. The woman is the one carrying the child in her body, and will need to provide for the child after birth for decades. It’s not like we’re each carrying half a baby that plops together in the end. So no, it’s absolutely not a 50/50 split.
Also, what’s if the pregnancy is an oops, but the guy doesn’t want a child? How does the vote swing his way? The anti-abortion laws actually provide for an biased ownership over a woman - sounds like slavery.
BTW - For this argument we’ll stay within the 10-12 week period.
The ethical and financial responsibilities can be debated if the woman wants the child but not the man (ie: should he be made to provide for her or not? )
But no, a woman’s body is 100% hers. Your view also breaks down horribly when it comes to the rape situation. If a guy forces himself on a woman, does he now own half her body and her choices? We can’t have it both ways.
Woman don’t have legal ownership over your body, so why do men need ownership of theirs??

 

[StephenOrange]

With unplanned pregnancies far more often than not it is the biological father pushing for an abortion. Not the mother. The man doesn't want to be saddled with child support payments, among other obligations like suddenly having to be a parent. Many pregnant women have been beaten up and even murdered over the situation.

A lot of implied slut-shaming goes on in discussions about abortion. Certain pro-life activists (typically men) like to say women are using abortion as a means of birth control. I have local friends who spout this BS. That argument could not be more out of touch. They like to think it's such an easy decision for a woman to decide to terminate a pregnancy. The procedure isn't exactly cheap. Access is not easy; clinics that perform abortions aren't exactly on every street corner, even in "blue" states.



Exactly. Too many "pro life" people really only pro-fetus. Once the baby is born it turns into a negative drain on taxpayer dollars. Hence all the attacks on government funding/aid for early child health care and day care, not to mention public education in general.

Not that much of this matters. Young adults are having less sex. Pregnancies are going way down. The United States is in the early years of what could be a dramatic "baby bust." Parenthood has turned into an extremely expensive lifestyle choice. More teens and young adults are getting increasingly skilled at avoiding it. Parenthood for so many of them is an instant gateway into poverty. If current birth rate trends in the US continue we'll be suffering serious to severe demographic imbalance in 10-20 years. We'll have too many old people not nearly enough of a working age tax base to keep the nation afloat.



Dying in the United States is big freaking business for our nation's health care system and a number of other related industries. Letting someone die on their own terms in a controlled manner rather than languishing in a costly medical facility goes against that business model.

Couldn’t agree more.

 

[StephenOrange]

Because, the healthcare providers won't be able to bill your insurance to keep you alive those last remaining sick days.

edit:: just saw Bobby's comment... seems I'm not the only one thinking that.

I think if it was legal then industry would absolutely find a way to make money out of it, and insurance would be right there. Make no mistake, assisted suicide is a hard one because there are so many legal and family moving parts.

 

[GAC05]

I think if it was legal then industry would absolutely find a way to make money out of it, and insurance would be right there. Make no mistake, assisted suicide is a hard one because there are so many legal and family moving parts.

Plus with a moderate success rate, there would be few repeat customers and almost zero callbacks.

 

[Bobby H]

Dying in the United States is big freaking business for our nation's health care system and a number of other related industries. Letting someone die on their own terms in a controlled manner rather than languishing in a costly medical facility goes against that business model.

While this is very true, I'll say that a great number of religious groups would dethrone any representative of theirs drafting legislation for it. Kindly a scenario the lobbyists can look at and not even bother touching unless they see it move.

Too many religious leaders in the US are failing miserably at being the shepherd to people in need of help. Instead there is too much of this fire and brimstone judgment belching out, along with way too much politics from the pulpit. It's no wonder so many Americans are turned off by the idea of going to church.

We've had over 100,000 Americans die of drug overdoses in the past year. Some of these "religious leaders" might be whispering to themselves, "good riddance." Car accident related deaths are way up, despite all the covid-related lock-downs that should have reduced traffic and accidents. So many of us don't have our heads straight these days or are just plain road-raging. The homicide rate has been rising. It's not nearly as bad as it was in the early 1990's or all time highs set in 1980. But it's lot worse than historic lows set just a few years ago. Murder gets the news headlines. But suicide kills roughly three times as many people.

I've lost friends to suicide. One of my good friends in high school hanged himself in the woods. It hurts bad when anyone you care about dies, even if you know the end is coming. But if they die of a disease or get killed in an accident you can make sense of it. Losing a friend or family member to suicide is something else. The grief you suffer from that is twisted. It's pointless to even try understanding it. All I can figure is that if someone is in enough pain they're not going to give two S#!ts about what some televangelist says about the matter. At some point the pain just becomes too overwhelming and the only thing they want is for it to stop.

There is a great deal of money-grubbing scamming going on with end of life care. A family member is terminally ill, but not checking out really fast and easy. So they get to stay in the hospital and hospice care until the end. Meanwhile the family has to do this legal circle jerk trying to transfer ownership of whatever assets the dying relative has before the hospital and various other parties seize them as a part of doing business. I've been through this a few times before. Even if Medicare and the Military is supposed to be covering expenses the vultures will still make a play.

 

[Johnny Best]

I've lost friends to suicide. One of my good friends in high school hanged himself in the woods. It hurts bad when anyone you care about dies, even if you know the end is coming. But if they die of a disease or get killed in an accident you can make sense of it. Losing a friend or family member to suicide is something else. The grief you suffer from that is twisted. It's pointless to even try understanding it. All I can figure is that if someone is in enough pain they're not going to give two S#!ts about what some televangelist says about the matter. At some point the pain just becomes too overwhelming and the only thing they want is for it to stop.

Suicide is just thinking of your pain and not your close friends or family suffering after your gone. The Spartan way of thinking about the group and not just yourself is the greater good. Believing in a God does not mean going to church or listening to a preacher. Just walking outside and looking at a tree is a spiritual awaking that takes your mind off of your egotistical being. You are only given one body in your lifetime, it's a gift.

 

[Stacey K]

Tuesday night there was a high school basketball game. Two best friends play, they both went home after the game. Soon after arriving home one mother heard on FB scanner there was a shooting and texted her best friend, the mother of her son's best friend. She said, "Did you hear there was a shooting? I wonder what happened?" The other mother replied, "That was my son. He just shot himself."

The mother of the boy who is alive works for my sister and called in extremely distressed and could not work Wednesday, that's how I know what was said. Another young person taken by suicide, it's so sad.

Johnny is right, this boys suicide devastated the family and friends. His best friend will likely never forgive himself for not seeing warning signs, as a teenager that's a lot to handle.

 

[Johnny Best]

The Spartan would also know when his time to carry the flag has ended, and that he has shifted from a contributor to a burden.

Never, always think of the whole, not the feelings of one. Only way home is being carried on your shield.
They were taken from their mother at 12 years old to learn the Spartan way of life.

 

[StephenOrange]

Tuesday night there was a high school basketball game. Two best friends play, they both went home after the game. Soon after arriving home one mother heard on FB scanner there was a shooting and texted her best friend, the mother of her son's best friend. She said, "Did you hear there was a shooting? I wonder what happened?" The other mother replied, "That was my son. He just shot himself."

The mother of the boy who is alive works for my sister and called in extremely distressed and could not work Wednesday, that's how I know what was said. Another young person taken by suicide, it's so sad.

Johnny is right, this boys suicide devastated the family and friends. His best friend will likely never forgive himself for not seeing warning signs, as a teenager that's a lot to handle.

What a horrible, horrible story. Man, it’s so disheartening knowing that so many people opt for this way out. I hope the family and friends are there for those parents.

 

[3Dsigns]

I have refused to do signs for alcohol establishments, off color or morally offensive words etc. I won't even do "peeing Calvins".