Designing for signs

[Rick]

Commence crockety old man speech:

You just can't blame the cheap client for putting out shoddy work. The client didn't put the vinyl in the cutter and hit 'plot'.

It really just boils down to caring enough about your profession and your community to charge what you need to in order to do the job right.

Now you got me thinking...

Signshop participation in blue
Client participation is in red

Open up the shop
Made contact with the client
Survey the property
Get the artwork
Looked up codes
Made/modified the artwork based on fabrication and installation methods
Send to client
Got approval from the client and/or building owner
Sent in for permit, get approval
Order materials
Prep the CNC file
Cut the logo/letters
Layout and make the pen plot for installation
Paint Letters
Prep Artwork for print
Print and laminate
Apply to substrate
Drill and set pins
Prepare logo for install
Get in bucket truck and haul your *** to the job
Remove old sign
Install
Go back to the shop
Clean up
Billing
All this while dealing with other projects, manage this project, reading trade journals, bookkeeping, taking care of bids, bills, insurances, payment, reading emails, signs101, and stuff at home...

BUT IT'S THE CLIENTS FAULT...

 

[Bobby H]

Regarding the original poster's questions and some other repeated comments I'll offer my 2¢.

Personally, I started designing signs (drawing and painting them by hand) back in the mid 1980's when I was still in high school. I studied graphic design and illustration at a pretty good art school and earned a 4 year BFA degree. I worked in TV for a couple years; the work was fun but the pay was $#!+. After a couple temporary gigs in Dallas I wound up in my current job, where I've been for 25 years. I work for a pretty good company and we build some pretty decent stuff. I have family here in Oklahoma, so that's also part of what drew me away from the big city.

I've seen a lot of people come and go during the past 25 years, including some designers. A few have been pretty decent. A few didn't cut it and stayed only a short time. Formal training in graphic design, be it a 4 year degree or even just a few classes at the local Vo-Tech, isn't always a must. But it is a must for someone doing design work to be able to think visually. It helps improve one's design sense, but it also pays dividends in the fabrication process too. A green, newbie sign designer will be doing other tasks in addition to using a computer. Being able to think visually and "see" the steps of the sign making process before the steps are executed can prevent a bunch of costly, time/material-wasting mistakes. More often than not those fabrication/installation mistakes were what got the "bad" designer canned.

Whether the job candidate is formally trained or self taught, he should be able to bring some samples of his graphic design work to a job interview. A portfolio of some kind. I'm not impressed at all by resumes that claim knowledge in all sorts of design programs. A good portfolio of work is more valuable.

There's all kinds of books on graphic design and even some on sign design. But there's a bunch of knowledge in this business that only gets learned via experience. A good sign designer should be observant of signs that are effective and eye pleasing. It's even better if he/she can break down the elements of what makes those signs effective and eye pleasing. It's even better than that if he/she has a passion for signs. Not many people truly care about signs and the visual impact they make on the landscape. There's a lot of people doing sign design work where it's just a job and the work is all churn and burn. And it shows in the quality of their work.

A good designer needs to be self critical. I've seen graphics people in all sorts of fields (including the sign industry) who think all of their work is fantastic. I can load up some designs I did 20 years ago, laugh at them and wonder, "what the hell was I thinking?" Any real "artist" will always want to grow and improve the quality of his work. Otherwise he's going to get into a rut and his job will be nothing more than a job and his work will devolve into churn and burn crap.

I see a LOT of horribly designed (and fabricated) signs all over the place. Well, I at least see them in places where signs can still be installed. I have a pretty unreasonable hatred of the Arial type family; it's a butt-ugly sans. But my hatred of it gets really intense when I see the all too common squeezing and stretching of Arial to cram it into a given space. Arial is one of the go-to fonts for hacks. It's right there at the top of the font menu.

I understand why a growing number of cities, suburbs, etc are drafting very restrictive sign codes. Our industry is doing a TERRIBLE job of policing itself. There's no shortage of quickie sign shops who will hire a "designer" where the only qualifications needed are a pulse and to be present. Unless our industry can start improving itself from within I'm afraid we will see a lot more cities draft very restrictive, anti-signs sign codes.

I approach sign design with a sense of civic responsibility. If I'm working on a substantial custom sign that's meant to stand in front of a business for 10 or 20 years I don't want to just whip out some crappy design in 5 minutes using default fonts and canned clip art. Not if I can help it. If the sign is installed locally I'll end up driving past it many times in the coming years. If I did a crappy job on that project that sign will remind me of the crappy job I did. Clients can intervene and make a sign crappy via their own "creative input." In those cases my conscience will be clear, but I'll still hate on the choices they made and that end result up on a pole or building.

There was at one time fonts called "Multiple Masters" that emulated hand manipulated strokes and widths, but was later dropped by Adobe. Too bad, because it allowed you to full up space with a typeface without distortion, kinda like how someone would get a thicker brush, or stroke the letter wider.

Actually the old Type 1 Multiple Master concept has been brought back to life with the new OpenType Variable font format. The latest versions of Adobe Illustrator CC have a few OTF Variable fonts built into it. The Acumin Variable Concept font is pretty good; it has 3 axis sliders (weight, width and slant). The one font file can do pretty much what the 90 font Acumin family (available on Typekit/Adobe Fonts) can do. I just wish more fonts were available, or that they would resurrect some past MM favorites, such as Kepler and Penumbra.

IMO, there is no good reason that the Subway logo couldn't at least match the rest in size and color. If I were the supreme ruler of the shopping center sign, there would be no exceptions.

It's actually illegal for a shopping center owner or even a city government to dictate colors for an established company logo. Back in the early 1990's the City of Tempe got sued by Blockbuster Video and another company (Video Giant I think) because their sign code demanded those brands change the color of their signage to fit within some kind of theme. Blockbuster sued on grounds of trademark infringement. Its blue and yellow awnings were very characteristic to that brand.

Subway is pretty particular about the use of its logo and colors. A third party (be it a sign designer who thinks he knows better, a shopping center owner or tin horn city councilman) has no justification to alter a brand like that, especially a national brand repeated in many other places. Sign codes can dictate all sorts of other things, but they can't change colors, letter styles other elements that make up the visual DNA of that brand.

 

[neato]

Now you got me thinking...

Signshop participation in blue
Client participation is in red

Open up the shop
Made contact with the client
Survey the property
Get the artwork
Looked up codes
Made/modified the artwork based on fabrication and installation methods
Send to client
Got approval from the client and/or building owner
Sent in for permit, get approval
Order materials
Prep the CNC file
Cut the logo/letters
Layout and make the pen plot for installation
Paint Letters
Prep Artwork for print
Print and laminate
Apply to substrate
Drill and set pins
Prepare logo for install
Get in bucket truck and haul your *** to the job
Remove old sign
Install
Go back to the shop
Clean up
Billing
All this while dealing with other projects, manage this project, reading trade journals, bookkeeping, taking care of bids, bills, insurances, payment, reading emails, signs101, and stuff at home...

BUT IT'S THE CLIENTS FAULT...

This is great! I think this should be the standard copy/paste reply whenever anyone blames the customer for a bad layout or not painting a wall before installing dimensional letters.

 

[Rick]

This is great! I think this should be the standard copy/paste reply whenever anyone blames the customer for a bad layout or not painting a wall before installing dimensional letters.

I took that part out!!!!

 

[signbrad]

It's actually illegal for a shopping center owner or even a city government to dictate colors for an established company logo. Back in the early 1990's the City of Tempe got sued by Blockbuster Video and another company (Video Giant I think) because their sign code demanded those brands change the color of their signage to fit within some kind of theme. Blockbuster sued on grounds of trademark infringement. Its blue and yellow awnings were very characteristic to that brand.

It is true that to change the colors of a protected design and display it that way without permission of the trademark owner is infringement. Changing the spelling or letterstyle without permission and displaying it would be an infringement as well.

Interestingly, most trademark registrations are not for the design of the mark, but for the name, the wording, of the mark. This type of registration is called a "standard character mark." Some IP lawyers recommend that, if you are going to buy just one trademark registration for a logo, it should be for a standard character mark rather than the design of the mark. Why? Because registering it as a standard character mark offers more protection. It protects the mark in any color combination, any typestyle, any shape—any iteration. It even protects the mark from a similar sounding mark. For example, Koca-Kola would be an infringement of Coca-Cola.
Protecting a mark's design only protects it in that particular design. Or more accurately, it only protects the design that is submitted with the application for trademark registration. If the trademark owner changes the design, another costly application for trademark design must be submitted. And though a trademark registration was never cheap, it has recently increased considerably in price. http://signbrad.com/2017/01/24/trademark-fees-go-up-way-up/

.............................

Register a trademark as a standard character mark or as a design mark? Which is better?
http://signbrad.com/2016/09/19/a-tr...is-not-always-about-protecting-a-logo-design/
(see the three links at the bottom of the blog page)

 

[TimToad]

Let's not let our local governments off the hook by presuming most are too tough on us all. Many depending on their budgets and political leanings will overlook a lot to appear "business friendly".

Nevermind that nothing dampens a business climate and screams amateur hour than a town full of schlocky looking signs.

I walk by this every night with my dog on the way home from the shop. The business park its in has about a dozen tenants. 10 out o12 have either dimensional letters or flat/panface panel wall signs.

The ones we've done are all either dimensional letters or aluminum panfaces well proportioned to the space they belong in, not just where the client insisted we put them like this garbage.

Feather flags are illegal in our town, but they are ALL OVER. We have a decent sign code and the city is slow, but not that difficult to work with and permits for non-illuminated are under $100. A popular tourist town to our north will literally take 2-3 months to get a non-illuminated sign permit through DRC and the Building Dept. and it will average almost $500.

 

[Bobby H]

Let's not let our local governments off the hook by presuming most are too tough on us all. Many depending on their budgets and political leanings will overlook a lot to appear "business friendly".

Well, that all depends on the angle being played by city council members, city planners and other deciders looking to improve business in the city.

One is the buddy-buddy good 'ole boy network angle where the city lets local business people do whatever they want, with few restrictions and lax code enforcement (if there's any code enforcement at all). I've seen city administrations in my town adopt that approach a couple different times during my years here. It's real friendly to local business people. They can buy the cheapest signs they want and not be forced to maintain, repair or replace run down signs they already have. Over the long term that "business friendly" approach will make a town's business arterials look like cluttered, run down hell. The policy literally invites blight.

Another angle is city beautification as a means of attracting new businesses and new residents. And that usually means attracting businesses with better paying jobs along with new residents boasting higher incomes, higher education levels and higher home buying budgets. Those folks aren't moving to a town that looks like a flea market. This is the angle that is scary to me because if it is taken to the extreme it will put a lot of sign companies out of business. A city council cannot legislate good taste. But they can sure ban specific categories of signs, draft severe square footage limits and do all sorts of other things to cut a sign company's income down to nothing.

Lots of upper income people want "business friendly" city governments. But if the town in which they live or do business looks like worn out junk they're probably going to want to do things to improve the town's image. They will want their town to emulate the visual features found in higher income towns & suburbs. Getting rid of ugly, dilapidated signs is one very obvious step to do that.

I've looked at a lot of higher end commercial districts either out the window of my truck or virtually using Google Street View. Most of those zones place very obvious, painful limits on signs. Some go nuts with the landscaping, enough that in some cases you can barely see the shops through all the trees and bushes lining the road. And then the little tombstone size monument signs get covered up by the shrubbery, if there's any signs allowed next to the road at all. These zones do other things that I do like, such as burying all the power lines. All those utility poles and overhead lines add a serious amount of clutter. When you remove that clutter it's surprising how much it seems to open up the sky.

Here in Oklahoma a lot of towns (mine included) are jealous of Edmond, OK. They have great (well funded) schools, a lot of nice homes and a few nice looking commercial thoroughfares. Edmond also has perhaps the most restrictive sign ordinance in the state. You can drive up Broadway and still see some ugly signs, but most of those are old and "grand-fathered." Anything new going up is subject to Edmond's current code. Want to install a LED-based electronic variable message center? Can't do that in Edmond. Message centers are banned there now. I figure it won't be long before they ban any new free-standing street signs and only allow building mounting signs (with a severe square footage limit of course).

About 15 years ago my town had a big sign code bru-ha-ha erupt on the city council. This blew up after the previous administration went out of its way to not enforce the sign code at all. It was really bad. One car wash that opened just off Sheridan Road installed a non-lighted directional sign right in the median strip of Sheridan Road! Illegal as hell. Stunts like that along with the dozens of other run down, not-maintained signs touched off the controversy. One council member was badly wanting to emulate what he had seen done with severe sign codes in places like Scottsdale, AZ. He had a lot of people singing his tune. Lots of residents here in Lawton were very tired of the town having a bad image and reputation. Thankfully cooler heads prevailed and the council simply went back to enforcing the reasonable code that was already on the books.

We got a reprieve back then. I'm nervous about the future. I rarely see a local business invest a lot of money in store front signage. If they do, a big chunk of it usually goes into a LED sign. Custom neon signs are becoming an increasingly rare thing. Most of the neon work we do is repair jobs on chain restaurant signs or other major retailers that still use neon in their signs. So many new signs are just boxes with digital printed graphics. Or they're flat Econolite panels with printed graphics. A bunch of the stuff has no visual personality to it. A big fancy neon sign can become a local landmark. The same ain't happening with a digital print on an Econolite panel.

With the retail apocalypse getting worse by the day one would think more of these brick and mortar businesses would step up their game in store front personality. Too often they're opting to do things on the cheap. And then that makes it even easier for city governments to adopt really strict sign codes. Not many people are going to shed a tear if a lot of plain box signs get banned.

The funny thing is these upper income zones with the nice landscaping and little tombstone signs probably aren't doing themselves many favors in the battle with online retail. They're not making it easy for brick and mortar businesses to stand out visually to passing motorists. The scenery looks nice, but it's also easier for the motorist to just drive home and order the product he wanted online rather than buy it from the business he passed that he didn't know was there.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Ooops, more...

So you go to the ghetto and complain the places look like crap? All those places seem like run down stores in crappy areas of town...those kinds of designs are expected. What are you expecting

 

[Bobby H]

Bad looking signs don't just exist in the ghetto. My town has had plenty of them get installed in the busiest areas of the city. It's obvious some of Rick's bad sign photos were taken in areas that weren't slums.

 

[Billct2]

"It's actually illegal for a shopping center owner or even a city government to dictate colors for an established company logo."
It is illegal for government entities to restrict color or style. Although many still do. A building owner may not be able to require a company change a logo,
but they can dictate the requirements for signs on their property and those rules may not allow a logo to be used as is.

 

[Rick]

So you go to the ghetto and complain the places look like crap? All those places seem like run down stores in crappy areas of town...those kinds of designs are expected. What are you expecting

As I look up the definition of ghetto, I am a bit confused as the word "minority" is used in the definition. Seems to skew the reader into thinking it's a minority issue. Since most of the residents in my area are Caucasian, I would imagine "depressed" would be the term used in this situation.

I am painfully aware that I live in a "depressed" area of California. Like my previous post states, these were all taken within a mile and a half from where I live. Complaining? I was not... seems you missed the point. After seeing what a few sign shop do on this forum, some really can't do much better than that. So when a non-skilled/talented sign person starts spouting off about the "art" and "skill" required to do even the basic of sign, and I happen to go to their website portfolio... I have to wonder how they can keep a straight face while typing suggestions...

By the way, the signs are a mess most likely because of what Bobby H alludes to, non-enforcement of the sign code. It's obvious business/signshops have run amuk in my area.

I'm trying to hit a nerve... I enjoyed another thing BobbyH said... self critical. No one likes being shown our work is bad. Instead of constantly patting ourselves on the back that we are masters of the graphic industry because we wield 54" of large format power, we should humbly stand back and question if we could use a little more practice in how we layout a sign.

So, again, if a shop has neither the skill, or the talent, how are the able to hire or teach a designer to "design" a decent layout.

After going to the OP's website and Facebook page. I'm not at all optimistic...

A pic of my area, a tiny line in magenta indicates the area where the street view images were taken... this visual pollution is everywhere, especially where non-enforcement of sign code occurs.

 

[Bobby H]

It is illegal for government entities to restrict color or style. Although many still do. A building owner may not be able to require a company change a logo, but they can dictate the requirements for signs on their property and those rules may not allow a logo to be used as is.

It's common for upper income areas to have covenants, design guidelines and review boards for building materials and color schemes, landscaping details and all sorts of other stuff. Signs can get included in that. They can dictate height limits, square footage limits, demand certain types of materials be used in a freestanding sign structure or ground-based monument. They can ban categories of signs, such as not allowing box cabinets on the building and requiring channel letters or other dimensional signs instead. They can do all sorts of things. But they risk running into big trouble if they want to change the style of lettering or colors in a business logo. That can land them in court. Or the potential new business may refuse to build there in the first place.

Small business owners with only a local brand have a tougher time protecting the elements of their brand. It's easier for a city government or shopping center operation to push around a "little guy" business than it is to push around a national chain. It's also easier for hacks working in the sign industry to goof up the logo and other design assets of a small business when incorporating them into sign designs.

No one likes being shown our work is bad. Instead of constantly patting ourselves on the back that we are masters of the graphic industry because we wield 54" of large format power, we should humbly stand back and question if we could use a little more practice in how we layout a sign.

I think a bunch of the not-so-talented hacks out there really don't care. They crank out the garbage designs in rapid fire fashion, even if they know they're making very basic mistakes along the way. The "I don't care" attitude is my first thought when I see any sign littered with default Arial Black squeezed or stretched to be crammed into a given space as big as possible. That designer obviously does not give a $#!+ about doing competent work. There is no excuse for that crap.

Just handling design basics in a competent manner is not hard at all to do. A bunch of basic sign design pointers can be picked up in the design guidelines of many national brands. The logo needs a certain amount of white/clear space. Don't stretch or squeeze the logo or fonts. Use the right colors. Pretty easy stuff. Lots of hacks out there can't even manage to follow those instructions when they're clearly spelled out.

20+ years ago I could give someone a pass for using the same tired font over and over again in sign designs. But not these days when computer-based type is so much more advanced and fonts are much more plentiful. Probably my favorite thing about Adobe's latest update to Creative Cloud is they made a huge amount of commercial fonts from a bunch of foundries fully available on Typekit/Adobe Fonts and took away the 100 font sync limit. There's thousands upon thousands of high quality fonts available, including lots of large font families all available with just a click. Yet the hacks out there still gotta squeeze and stretch Arial. It's disgusting.

 

[Rick]

Arial. It's disgusting.

Stop saying that! I use Arial Narrow on all my call-outs and construction details...

 

[Rick]

It's common for upper income areas to have covenants, design guidelines and review boards for building materials and color schemes, landscaping details and all sorts of other stuff. Signs can get included in that. They can dictate height limits, square footage limits, demand certain types of materials be used in a freestanding sign structure or ground-based monument. They can ban categories of signs, such as not allowing box cabinets on the building and requiring channel letters or other dimensional signs instead. They can do all sorts of things. But they risk running into big trouble if they want to change the style of lettering or colors in a business logo. That can land them in court. Or the potential new business may refuse to build there in the first place.

Small business owners with only a local brand have a tougher time protecting the elements of their brand. It's easier for a city government or shopping center operation to push around a "little guy" business than it is to push around a national chain. It's also easier for hacks working in the sign industry to goof up the logo and other design assets of a small business when incorporating them into sign designs.



I think a bunch of the not-so-talented hacks out there really don't care. They crank out the garbage designs in rapid fire fashion, even if they know they're making very basic mistakes along the way. The "I don't care" attitude is my first thought when I see any sign littered with default Arial Black squeezed or stretched to be crammed into a given space as big as possible. That designer obviously does not give a $#!+ about doing competent work. There is no excuse for that crap.

Just handling design basics in competent manner is not hard at all to do. A bunch of basic sign design pointers can be picked up in the design guidelines of many national brands. The logo needs a certain amount of white/clear space. Don't stretch or squeeze the logo or fonts. Use the right colors. Pretty easy stuff. Lots of hacks out there can't even manage to follow those instruction when they're clearly spelled out.

20+ years ago I could give someone a pass for using the same tired font over and over again in sign designs. But not these days when computer-based type is so much more advanced and fonts are much more plentiful. Probably my favorite thing about Adobe's latest update to Creative Cloud is they made a huge amount of commercial fonts from a bunch of foundries fully available on Typekit/Adobe Fonts and took away the 100 font sync limit. There's thousands upon thousands of high quality fonts available, including lots of large font families all available with just a click. Yet the hacks out there still gotta squeeze and stretch Arial. It's disgusting.

I agree, many don't care... it's signs by the pound. I was addressing the few who post on the forum where they use their years of experience as qualification to think they need no improving on their design skill. I have seen your work - it's obvious by how you communicate that you are well versed in sign and graphic design, but seeing your work, and the company you work for, speaks volumes of the skill and craftsmanship you have accumulated and are surrounded by. Most here will not have that opportunity. When you post, I listen.

By the way, I appreciate the OTF type reminder. I had read about it last year and completely ignored it or forgot it. I am currently playing around with it and hope that there will be more to come.

Even though I was schooled for 6 months back in 1979, I was lucky enough to learn from very good employers and co-workers. I started in the late 70's... hand lettering at first, but I also learned print tech and drafting. I worked for a while for an interior designer and a few shops before getting out... mostly because of the computer. In 1996 I got back into the business as a "grunt" for a small shop, mostly cleaning airbrushes and the mess the "artiste" made. He fired me, and I went on to a series of jobs in the shop, installing, then in design... all the while soaking up everything. So I agree, hands on mentoring by qualified mentors is very important. I ended up becoming an environmental/experiential graphic designer 3 years after getting back into it. Without the knowledge that was passed on, there was no way I could have done it. And now some 22 years later... I'm still being mentored - mostly by younger designers who's fresh ideas keep inspiring me to do better.

I know by default, after nearly 40 years, I should be jaded and broken... I can go back in my career and blame the clueless, tasteless clients or "it is what it is" attitude... but I enjoy the struggle of designing (or layout), presenting and pushing good work. We don't need another lackluster shop opening up - there are millions of them already. It's why I nudge a conversation toward doing better work.

By the way, the OP is a printing shop (business cards, flyers, promotional items, stationery) that happens to do EMC's, Monuments, Electrical Signs, Interior and Exterior signs... it's kinda scary to think that book and online reading will be the main source of information.

 

[Big Rice Field]

Desigenrsthat come out of design schools were trained in how to use Adobe Illustrator. It is nt hte best software for use in desigining signs. It is slower and cannot draw to scale. It lacks dimensioning tools and works in layers that machines cannot understand. If you cut vinyl nad cut metal you know what I mean.

In addtionart schooled desigenrs can get out of control with fonts that are too thin or too hard to read. They do not realize that 99% of the fonts used in commercial signage are BOLD.

In addition they have no idea of engineering sign structures. They are trained in how to make print artwork for letterheads, envelopes, business cards, posters and flyers. The sign business is way beyond that artsy fartsy stuff.

Sign design takes homework.

 

[Bobby H]

Desigenrsthat come out of design schools were trained in how to use Adobe Illustrator. It is nt hte best software for use in desigining signs. It is slower and cannot draw to scale. It lacks dimensioning tools and works in layers that machines cannot understand. If you cut vinyl nad cut metal you know what I mean.

Regarding Adobe Illustrator, yes it (along with several other Adobe applications) is used in most graphic design courses. And it should be. The application is the most commonly used vector drawing program in ad agencies, design studios and other businesses that have to produce vector graphics designs. Adobe InDesign is the industry standard page layout tool. Adobe Photoshop is the industry standard image editing application. It would stupid for anyone wanting to get paid doing graphic design work not to learn how to use those applications. The sign industry has a small niche in the field of graphic design, so any schools teaching graphic design aren't going to make applications like Flexi or SignLab a priority. And any design program worth a hoot is going to place more of a priority on teaching the principals of graphic design and making the students produce finished projects rather than on how to point and click in a computer application.

Adobe Illustrator isn't made specifically for sign design use. Neither is CorelDRAW for that matter. But both are frequently used for sign design despite the drawback of smaller work spaces, like the 227" X 227" max art board size for Adobe Illustrator. However the sign industry specific applications (such as Flexi, Vinyl Master Pro, etc) have all their own short-comings. Flexi 12 for all its bells and whistles is pretty freaking primitive in its type handling. It doesn't support any of the extended features of OpenType. That's a huge problem. Both CorelDRAW and Adobe Illustrator support the full OpenType standard. And Illustrator one-ups CorelDRAW by supporting OpenType Variable fonts and SVG color fonts. Both are doing things to make font use easier. Meanwhile Flexi's type handling is stuck in the 1990's. Flexi doesn't support the kinds of effects and color fills found in Adobe's applications or even CorelDRAW. A bunch of the work I do goes directly from Corel and/or Illustrator over to Onyx Thrive without stopping at all in Flexi.

I've used plenty of sign making applications. I started using the DOS version of CASmate and moved on to Flexi. But over the years, and especially now, I do most of my vector design work within Adobe Illustrator and CorelDRAW. Our business has 3 licenses of Flexi (and EnRoute as well), but Flexi isn't installed on my workstation.

In addtionart schooled desigenrs can get out of control with fonts that are too thin or too hard to read. They do not realize that 99% of the fonts used in commercial signage are BOLD.

I think that generalization is a load of crap. Unless the student had lousy instructors or didn't do well in the classes he wouldn't be making those legibility mistakes. Even someone with little if any talent who at least followed along in the classes would know better. I also say this statement above is a load of crap because it seems to imply someone entirely self-taught wouldn't make any similar mistakes and be able to get up to speed in a sign company faster than someone with formal training. There's a learning/training curve for any newbie just hired at a sign company. Odds are someone with formal training and a good portfolio will be producing good work faster. I've seen the difference in 25 years at my work place.

In addition they have no idea of engineering sign structures. They are trained in how to make print artwork for letterheads, envelopes, business cards, posters and flyers. The sign business is way beyond that artsy fartsy stuff.

Someone fresh out of art school probably wouldn't know how to compute the wind load for a sign structure. I'm willing to bet good money a self-taught graphic artist applying for a job at a sign company wouldn't know how to do that either!

Yeah, designing signs is a quite a bit different than designing brochures, magazine layouts, etc. But designing signs properly means doing more than setting some type in Arial Black and distorting the living hell out of it to stuff it into a sign face as big as possible. A bunch of self-taught hacks out there don't know how to do anything but that nonsense. Doing a proper job designing a sign is more than "artsy fartsy" stuff.

By the way, the graphic design field is a whole lot more complicated now. If you check the courses of study at most schools teaching graphic design, particularly full blown art schools, you'll see a whole lot more than just print-related design in the course offerings.

 

[Rick]

Desigenrsthat come out of design schools were trained in how to use Adobe Illustrator. It is nt hte best software for use in desigining signs. It is slower and cannot draw to scale. It lacks dimensioning tools and works in layers that machines cannot understand. If you cut vinyl nad cut metal you know what I mean.

In addtionart schooled desigenrs can get out of control with fonts that are too thin or too hard to read. They do not realize that 99% of the fonts used in commercial signage are BOLD.

In addition they have no idea of engineering sign structures. They are trained in how to make print artwork for letterheads, envelopes, business cards, posters and flyers. The sign business is way beyond that artsy fartsy stuff.

Sign design takes homework.

It surprises me you still cling on to that thinking... how long have you been spouting this off? There are so many generalizations in this comment that it's impossible to know where to start. I know you are not ignorant about this. But let's pretend you are...

-- At a school that actually teaches graphic design - I'm not talking trade schools or McDesign schools, but design schools... (Art Center, Otis, FIDM, CalArts) they teach the principles of design, not software. Yeah, you may be supplied with Adobe, you may get a discount on it, it may be the preferred software, but once a drawing goes up on the wall for critique, no-one cares what software it was made on...

-- Adobe is slower for you because you are obviously a CorelDraw Fanboy and have an aversion to being taught that program... try Auto-Cad... we designers sometimes have to use that. -You know this too

-- It's true, Adobe can't design in scale out of the box... you have to buy CadTools and it's helpful to purchase Hotdoors "control plugins" as well. Then you have scale, info and label tools that far exceed Corel Draws - you know this...

-- 99% of the EGD design firms in LA use Illustrator, and metal is being CNC'd and vinyl seems to be getting cut using Illustrator with layers. I do it all the time, didn't realize I've been doing it incorrectly since 1996... how are those signs staying up?

-- I'm sure when you got that ADA job you knew all about it? Or right out of the box knew Title 19 or OHPD requirements or Health and Safety.

There are times that mechanics, such as ourselves, help and guide designers along to make their design(s) possible. There is nothing I love more than to stick it to a designer and tell them it can't be built, BUT IN TURN... some if these designers are not restricted by our forced training and they actually come up with something we mechanics can only dream of. I don't want graphic designers knowing sign design, why would you? Imagine all the freelance work you could have right now if you added Illustrator with Cadtools to your design arsenal and serviced high end environmental graphic design firms instead of the usual suspects we have all dealt with in LA...

By the way, I use whatever tool works with my workflow... currently it's Illustrator with CadTools and Control Plug-ins... along with the occasional Corel Draw tweaks and the rare Auto-Cad work when dealing with wayfinding and location plans. I have a wider base of clients to get work, so I can fire the piddly jobs and shops that hand out bounced checks.

sign design does not take homework... it's takes mentoring and training

 

[I-try]

Obviously designing for a sign is a lot different than designing for print. If I hire a designer that has never designed signs before is there a recommended guide out there somewhere. I have found a lot of stuff online but if there is one place to go to get the best information on sign designing please let me know, I appreciate it.

Going back to the original question after reading some of these responses... I manage a sign shop currently. Although it's small, only have a few employees and a couple owners above me, but when I was posed to hire someone last year my thought on it was this: I want someone awesome. I'm not going to hire any average designer off of the street to design for signage because let's face it... they are few and far between. But hire someone with a little design background, who is a magnet and can replicate. It helps if they are book-smart, but street-smart always pans out better. Personally, before entering in to the sign business, my background was architecture, not an architect but a designer... self taught working for a fortune100 company. I also had some mechanical engineering twisted up in there as well, but I have always been pretty solid with design programs (ie.CAD, Solidworks, Revit, Illustrator etc..). So I knew what I could do, I wanted someone with similar qualities. After months of searching I found one... They started out great... but fired this person because when the job got to "easy", workmanship and quality went out the door and games on the phone became an issue. We pay better than any other shop in the area too, so I was a bit baffled.

Moral of the story, look for the qualities in an applicant that you truly desire and then mold them to what you want them to be. Layout this out to them ahead of time so they know what you expect... take the time and be patient. When I started I had all this knowledge, but the first time I went to lay vinyl on a vehicle by myself I was so freaking frustrated I wanted to pack my crap and walkout, but a little guidance went a long way. After a few years, I became the teacher, not the teach'd. This could be your next hire.

 

[Big Rice Field]

I took three years of AutoCAD classes in college. I worked for Collins Sign Corporation which used AutoCAD for engineering drawings.
I also worked for four years at AD/S and spent many hours trying to coinvince the owners to get AutoCAD and they always balked at the price.
I finally gave up and lef the company. Ten years later they have an engineering department the uses AutoCAD. They would not listen to me.

I have used both CorelDraw and Adobe Illustrator

CorelDraw includes the ability to render scale drawings and to do dimensionsing WITHOUT the added expense of plug ins for Illustrator
9 out of 10 sign corporations in the Los Angeles area use Corel instead of Illustrator in their deisgn departments. I know because I have worked with them.

 

[TimToad]

I took three years of AutoCAD classes in college. I worked for Collins Sign Corporation which used AutoCAD for engineering drawings.
I also worked for four years at AD/S and spent many hours trying to coinvince the owners to get AutoCAD and they always balked at the price.
I finally gave up and lef the company. Ten years later they have an engineering department the uses AutoCAD. They would not listen to me.

I have used both CorelDraw and Adobe Illustrator

CorelDraw includes the ability to render scale drawings and to do dimensionsing WITHOUT the added expense of plug ins for Illustrator
9 out of 10 sign corporations in the Los Angeles area use Corel instead of Illustrator in their deisgn departments. I know because I have worked with them.

I don't see the choice between software preferences being an either/or dilemma. I think a lot of it depends on the company one keeps and the type of signs one MOSTLY does.

If designing, engineering and preparing working, scaled drawings for mostly electrical signage permitting, fabrication, etc. than use the program(s) that make those tasks the easiest to accomplish. We haven't found a perfect software for every scenario, so we gang up on things and use multiple programs to get to the finish line on a project.