Need Help Die-cutting labels and stickers

[martinow]

Hello everyone!

I am thinking of purchasing either a Summa S1 or a S2. All the stuff I will produce is completely die-cut stickers, not kiss-kut etc. In the Summa world, they call it flex cut. But they do not recommend it for complex shapes (die-cutting) only squares etc. Does anyone have any experience with die-cutting stickers with complex shapes?

Attached is example photos of stickers I will produce.

Thank you for any help!

 

[bob]

That's why it's called 'die cutting', it's done with a die. Doing it on a plotter, even limited to simple shapes, is a stunt, not a method.

 

[Raum Divarco]

Hello everyone!

I am thinking of purchasing either a Summa S1 or a S2. All the stuff I will produce is completely die-cut stickers, not kiss-kut etc. In the Summa world, they call it flex cut. But they do not recommend it for complex shapes (die-cutting) only squares etc. Does anyone have any experience with die-cutting stickers with complex shapes?

Attached is example photos of stickers I will produce.

Thank you for any help!

For what you are looking for there are more smaller format platforms that use more standard drag knife cutting.
They are various tooling options with some having sheet-fed and roll options.
Vivid markets Signajet which seems to be doing well. There are several other ones too that are similar in function and price point.

 

[Saturn]

There are a LOT of threads already created on die-cutting stickers with a Summa. Definitely search for some of those and do a lot of reading.

I use a Summa S2 tangential all day long to cut very complex die-cut stickers, many many thousands a week all by my lonesome. There is definitely a learning curve and if you're not the handy/tinkering type I wouldn't suggest any part of this game, let alone getting up to speed on the pre-press side, but it's very doable and can make good money with a ton of hard work.

I think most of us that do this style of small, merch type stickers forgo the flex-cut and just do a single or double pass with the regular cut. There may be some things Flex-cut would excel at, but I haven't found it.

 

[ikarasu]

That's why it's called 'die cutting', it's done with a die. Doing it on a plotter, even limited to simple shapes, is a stunt, not a method.

Stickermule uses about 6 graphtecs and diecut a couple hundred thousand decals a day with it .. I'm sure they're making tons more than most of us on S101, so it's a pretty good stunt!

I can't help for the summa. But I can do decently complex curves with perf cutting in the graphtec... Nice smooth edges as well. I probably do thousands a week this way. Can't imagine Making a die for all these 1-200 sticker orders...I can likely finish graphtecing the job before a die is made up. We diecut when we have 100s of thousands of decals of the same shape. But we do roughly 40-60k decals a week on our graphtec with no issue.

 

[Saturn]

What material and laminate is that right there ikarasu?

 

[ikarasu]

Ij35 and signmax, I also use 8048 and 8508. For perf cutting I've found the vinyl matters the most... And it's not so much the vinyl, but the backing paper.

I've tried 3M, Avery, cheap stuff .. so far 3M has been a perfect cut with no rough edges. Avery cuts ok as well, but sometimes the backing rips... It doesn't affect the sticker, but still doesn't look as professional. The cheap $80 a roll crap is just a nightmare.

Works on complex shapes, rectangles, pretty much anything. I used to kiss cut then perf cut around because it left a rough edge... But ever since I started using only 3m, I can get away with either since it's so smooth.

Don't judge the artwork... I just do the printing, no design work

 

[ikarasu]

I need to know how you're running these without scoring up your cutting strip!

You may have missed it, but this is on a graphtec, not a Summa! I only posted to show you don't need to "Diecut" to get good results. This is the main reason I went Graphtec over Summa... A lot of people say Summa is just as good at perf cutting... but I always asked how when there is no cut channel... To which I got "Summa uses a harder cutting strip, its superior and you dont need to change it often because of it, even with perf cutting"

I haven't run a Summa much, so I cant refute that! But all I know is my graphtec is perf cutting 3-4 hours a day for the past 2 years and I havent had to change the cutting strip once... mainly because I don't need to use it I'm sure Summa can cut just as cleanly... but odds are you will need to change the strip out fairly often.

 

[Christian @ 2CT Media]

If this is your main business model, I would look at a flatbed. Far more efficient and precise.

They being said, we have done it on our summa in the past with mixed results. It takes of testing and prep work.

 

[Saturn]

The Summa cut strip takes about 5 min to change if you do it more than a few times a year, otherwise the adhesive has set too long and you may have to get out the alcohol and elbow grease for a one-time clean.

Cost to keep me in a year of cutting strips on a 30" Summa is ~$75. I'm pretty sure I change them more often than I need to (they're never deeply scored), but again, 5 min changeout and <$100 for 12 months on Summa cut strips...

I may have to create a PDF or video for setting up the Summa to die-cut general use merch/swag stickers. I see a lot of folks giving up on them, but as a one-person shop doing 100,000's of thousands of stickers a year, it adds up to good money and fits in a 500 sq ft shop quite nicely. Having seen a lot of the competition's work, this is as precise as you can get and if you aren't using Flex-Cut it cuts as fast as I can pop them out and QC them.

I'm obviously biased, but I have yet to find a fault other than, yes, you have to be a little patient learning to dial things in when you're first picking things up.

 

[victor bogdanov]

I tried this with my graphtec a few days ago, pretty simple process and doing 1000s of stickers on the graphtec is easy once you have all the settings dialed in.

I also have a summa s2t, I like the graphtec much more have 8 graphtecs 8600/9000, 1 summa and 2 rolands recently replaced by graphtec.

Main negatives that put me off the summa is the plastic roller handle that breaks and requires so much work to replace, also graphtec has many choices for cheap blades, summa blades are expensive and no 3p alternatives

 

[Jburns]

I make shapes like those every day on my Gerber edge, envision 375 (Of course this setup is limited to size and graphic type).

After front cut, flip the vinyl over , backcut on the paper liner after the front cut, and you barely tap them and they fall out. I've had 100% accuracy on runs of 75 decals - probably can do more. - blade never touches the cutting strip

 

[pjfmeister]

those of you using Graphtec are you using a 60 degree blade or which blade do you recommend for clean cut?

 

[martinow]

Thanks everyone! There is alot of good feedback here!
The Norwegian Summa supplier tells me that a F1612 is the only option for this. But it really is impossible to find offices below 5000 sqf that will fit that machine and it's out of budget.

The Summa cut strip takes about 5 min to change if you do it more than a few times a year, otherwise the adhesive has set too long and you may have to get out the alcohol and elbow grease for a one-time clean.

Cost to keep me in a year of cutting strips on a 30" Summa is ~$75. I'm pretty sure I change them more often than I need to (they're never deeply scored), but again, 5 min changeout and <$100 for 12 months on Summa cut strips...

I may have to create a PDF or video for setting up the Summa to die-cut general use merch/swag stickers. I see a lot of folks giving upon them, but as a one-person shop doing 100,000's of thousands of stickers a year, it adds up to good money and fits in a 500 sq ft shop quite nicely. Having seen a lot of the competition's work, this is as precise as you can get and if you aren't using Flex-Cut it cuts as fast as I can pop them out and QC them.

I'm obviously biased, but I have yet to find a fault other than, yes, you have to be a little patient learning to dial things in when you're first picking things up.

That would be awesome to see. I am wondering if I should get the new Summa S1 or the S2 with a tangential knife. Do you have any thoughts?
Right now I am outsourcing about 300 000 stickers a year.

 

[Saturn]

Martinow, I use the S2 tangential. I have no experience with the drag knife plotter, but I have competitors that use them.

300,000 a year you'd definitely want to take advantage of the barcode server in the RIP. In my market that amount a year would be very good $ if you're solo, just long workdays.

There's a lot more to doing 300k stickers than just cutting them though... Not gonna work half-baked.

 

[ikarasu]

Thanks everyone! There is alot of good feedback here!
The Norwegian Summa supplier tells me that a F1612 is the only option for this. But it really is impossible to find offices below 5000 sqf that will fit that machine and it's out of budget.


That would be awesome to see. I am wondering if I should get the new Summa S1 or the S2 with a tangential knife. Do you have any thoughts?
Right now I am outsourcing about 300 000 stickers a year.

Any reason you're ruling out graphtec?


I don't know if tangential helps with perf cutting at all. It's great if you're doing really small cuts since it's not dragging the knife... But I haven't found anything our graphtec can't cut that our flatbed with tangential can .. except for thick small diamond grade cuts.

I think you'd be fine with the drag instead of tangential.... I imagine the blades are way cheaper too.

Which is another thing... Check blade costs. Cutting through paper is what dulls blades quickly .. I don't know what the market is like on summa, but in graphtec I can buy cheap crappy blades for $1 each that does perf cutting perfectly. I still use the $40 blades for kiss cutting because they last forever, but I can throw away a perf blade everyday and have it cutting just as smooth when blades cost $1 only.

 

[Saturn]

You can get CleanCut or cheapo eBay blades for the Summa if you want to go that route.

I use Summa blades and change them every 1-2 months. 300,000 stickers a year should net you $60k-100k+ if you're a sole-proprietor in the US, so $450 bucks in annual Summa consumables hopefully won't TKO business.

(I would love to get a month using one of the new Graphtecs, people seem to really love them, and I trust folks like ikarasu when they say they're doing what they're doing, so hopefully folks learn as much from all the little tidbits shared here, and aren't blinded by the "My brand is better than your brand!")

 

[Raghaus]

This is all great info. May I ask you... What do you do to prevent the stickers a.) From falling out in the cutter and b.) How do you keep the skeleton material stable enough so it doesn't get chewed up in the cutter?

I'm assuming you work with plenty of margin, or fake some sort of flex cut?

 

[Saturn]

This is all great info. May I ask you... What do you do to prevent the stickers a.) From falling out in the cutter and b.) How do you keep the skeleton material stable enough so it doesn't get chewed up in the cutter?

I'm assuming you work with plenty of margin, or fake some sort of flex cut?

Nothing out of the ordinary is done, and the material for the most part "clings" together just enough to make them stable while the sheets are cut, and transporting them to the table to get popped out. If they are truly falling out in the machine, that would mean you have the blade too far out and need to back it or the pressure off. It's hard to believe until you see it in action, but you do indeed get clean cuts and easy to pop out stickers without using the perf/flex cut option. I think there's just a narrower window to adjust things.

 

[Raghaus]

Thank you. I'll have to give it a whirl. I recently did a job with a cutting mat... kiss cut & contour cut - you can imagine the agony.