Dinosaurs?

[Deaton Design]

So are vinyl cutters the new dinosaur in the sign industry? Seems like everyone is into the digital side of things now, as most subjects deal with printers and such. Im still using a cutter, and still using primarily mdo for all outdoor signs, along with lettering trucks (when I get one) with cut vinyl. I have no intentions on buying a printer, but I do a fair amount of digital banners from time to time. Here where I live, its become mainly the price and not the look of things. People are happy with a crappy sign, just so long as its cheap. There are exceptions to the rule, but for the most part, people only care about price. I sometimes think they make themselves believe the sign they bought looks good, cause they got it cheap. I keep thinking too that maybe Im the dinosaur, and maybe I need to get out and focus on something else. Dont know. Maybe I think too much too, lol.

 

[SignManiac]

I still think design is what's worth money. Don't matter the medium. I'd go head to head with anyone and get the bigger bucks. Oh wait, I say no to cheap azzes!

 

[Rick]

You think too much...
I still see a lot of cut vinyl look better that a lot of print stuff. I don't pay attention to cheap since that is not who I market too and that is not my competition.

 

[tsgstl]

I enjoyed making signs more before I bought my printer. I only did because more and more of my customers needed a logo with fades/whatnot. It got to a Point where I was picking prints up left and right from my closest competitor. I still cut a lot of vinyl. I think cut vinyl looks better for longer. Slapping prints covered with 4' scotchtape cheapens a good sign imo.

On the same note I have expanded my business in so many new directions now that I have one. Times have been tough til late and I don't think I would of survived without it.

 

[bob]

So are vinyl cutters the new dinosaur in the sign industry? ...

I always thought that they were dinosaurs when they were first introduced. The incredible waste, figure 95% of the materials involved end up in the trash can, and the insane process, makes for what has to be the most inefficient way to make a sign yet discovered. It's a passing wonder that the process has endured as long as it has.

The whole cut vinyl process always reminds me a time during the California gold rush where laundry was shipped to Hawaii to be washed and pressed and then shipped back to San Francisco or, just as silly, the pony express. Both of which lasted about 18 months. They were both problems desperately seeking a solution.

It would seem that printer and ink technology has been relatively slow to mature thus providing and extraordinary life-span for cut vinyl. I would presume that in the near future there will be portable printers and and inks with enamel-like durability that will accommodate irregular surfaces so that you could hold one up to a truck door and print directly on it.

Perhaps paper thin programmable and malleable flat panels you could fasten to most anything.

Something like that. But the process will no doubt somehow evolve into virtually all design and very little production effort.

 

[Fred Weiss]

Ruling out dimensional signs and channel letters, most of the windows, vehicles and general signage I see around is still cut vinyl. And I think it's generally better than the print work I also see ... in terms of design, composition, legibility and durability. The majority of the print work seems to be what will fit on a rectangular substrate, be it an 18 x 24 coro along side of the road or 4 x 8 site signs. The wraps I see, 9 out of 10 are ruined by too many photoshop effects which are a poor substitute for actual design.

I think working in cut vinyl has the same benefit as designing a logo in black and white before color or modifications are added. One is forced to focus on the core elements of the design or layout making it easier to get it right.

Cut vinyl may be more labor intensive but it's also easy to use the durability and legibility as an upsell.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Cut vinyl seems to do pretty well for me as far as shirts go.

Something to add on the design part, designs for cut vinyl also helps for designing for embroidery as well. They don't always directly translate, but they both require the same principles in the design process.

 

[GAC05]

I don't think I'd like to be just starting out as a vinyl cutter today.
But a mix of print and cut is a healthy place to be in today's economy in my opinion.
Where it makes sense I offer my customers both, explaining the advantages of each.

The bulk of my work right now is POP stuff that goes up for just a month or so.
It's all digital and couldn't be done in cut vinyl - window posters banners - cash mats etc..
On the other hand we are just about finished with a fleet of tankers that have solid unprinted vinyl as the base to change the vehicle color and on top are both cut and printed graphics. We could have printed the whole wrap but solid colors look better and will last longer using cast cut vinyl. Easier to install too.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Mosh]

Just A different tool. When i started Cutting vinyl was thought of the same way (1988) it IS ALL IN THE LAYOUT! But to be honest, I save lots of $$$ not having to stock 40-50 vinyl colors, infact I am down to just the basic colors of vinyl I stock. Besides I love telling "new shops" that have a cricut that they are out of date.....

There will always be a market for cut vinyl...But I think you will need both to survive today's market.

 

[Techman]

There is very little cut vinyl here. 3d dimensional and channel letters and gemini type lettering here. Vinyl is not allowed outside on windows and such.

Inside stuff is printed pop signs etc.So, i gave away one of my anagraph cutters.

So yes. a cutter is needed a little.. but for th emost part is a dinosaur/

 

[tsgstl]

The incredible waste, figure 95% of the materials involved end up in the trash can

I hope you are not eluding to inkjet printing being better wast wise. Unless you are printing with a flat bed on all materials I think there is at least as much waste if not more. With all the mistakes, bad prints, partial never used rolls, 3' print on 5' rolls, contour cutting needing unused areas around all sides, and a extra layer of lam on a majority. Not to mention covering the entire sign with vinyl. Plus not only what waste there is but what goes in the landfill after the life of the sign has ink all over it. Thick plastic ink cartridges and tanks full of ink waste to boot.

And I think flat panel technology has ruined art direction in many things, the academy awards looked ridiculous with all the fake background clutter.

 

[CentralSigns]

I think for vinyl cutters to become dinosaurs current print/cut technology has to increase a lot. Inks need to last 9 yrs like quality cast vinyl does. The printers waste a lot of vinyl, my Summa cutter can cut to a fraction of an inch of waste. The printer always wastes 4 inches of material, and on small jobs that adds up fast. Can't seem to get around the waste issue on the Roland. I'd say product wise, cut vinyl makes up about 40% of our sales, in the form of decals and truck door lettering mostly. Most of our customers are looking for signs to last longer than 3-5 yrs. We also do real well on printed banners, so I'd have to say cut vinyl banners are a dinosaur product now, but that would be our only dinosaur.

 

[john1]

I barely use my plotter now that i have a versacamm. I knock the dust off the plotter a few times a month but the print/cutter gets used mostly.

 

[GAC05]

Not to worry too much, all of us will be replaced by digital advertizing in the near future. Everyone will have some type of web/cloud connected device that will push marketing directly at us.

Even Old Paint will be forced to go digital soon.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Dave Drane]

I know where you are coming from JD. I live in an area where the UV from the sun is very high and printed stuff does not last. How can several microns of pigment be worse than a thin layer of ink? I just looked at a job yesterday for a guy and the sign he had was vinyl sheeting applied to ply and had shrunk back to ridiculous proportions because the new "signmaker" can not get paint on his clothes or does not know how to use it. I have seen these guys in their spotlessly clean uniforms who pump out prints. I feel I am a dinosaur myself because I compare clean layouts with printed crap. Does anyone not read Behounik's articles in the SignCraft magazine?? Look at Jan/Feb of this year and compare that to the so called "modern" layouts that are being printed. I do use a print broker when I have to but I will never own a printer. I don't mind seeing customers with paint on my clothing and I think it gives them the appearance that I am an old timer who knows what he talks about. Doing special effects because you can does not a decent design make. I will hang on to my old Graphtec and Gerber 4A cutters for as long as it takes until I retire.

 

[rjssigns]

Not to worry John. We run in streaks whipping back and forth between cut vinyl and digital prints. Not too long ago we were cutting so much vinyl I had to stop and think why we bought a printer. Although being a print/cut rig we used it to cut logos for wind surf sails. Right after that a client brought in a job that used close to a 50 yard roll of plain white 54".
Not complaining, but sometimes it makes ya question your business model.

 

[jfiscus]

Our Envision runs about as much as our GS6000 here... different customers need different materials. We do lots of fleet striping/lettering from solid colors and also do a fair amount of printed signage/banners/etc.

I still love my Edge; even though it is expensive to operate compared to the GS6000, everything is 100% accurate and crisp on the small stuff.

 

[OldPaint]

john, we WHO PAINT, will never be replaced by digital. also we can DRAW, THIS puts us in a different league then vinyl jockey's and print producers. its sad that no one today who is in this line of work want to learn how...........to paint or draw. so much more real satisfaction when you clean up your brushes and step back and say..WOW, i did that!!!!!
as for WASTE, in vinyl, it has a lot of that, which i dont like. when we painted the biggest waste was a gallon of turps.......about every month. ANDDD most of us, recycled it. we have a full gallon of clean turps, and and an empty gallon can that we would dump the dirty turps in. after this sat for a few days, the paint particles would fall to the bottom, and you could reuse the same turps again, and again.)))) a few paint filled rags and that was about it. i was shocked the 1st year i did my books after i started to cut vinyl. my MATERIALS cost increased like 10 fold from what it was when i painted only.
VINYL.....has its place. i still do more of it then print. i have an older ENCAD 736 inkjet that does most little stuff i need. got friends with printers when i need something for outdoor long time.
i dont like WRAPS, most i see are so garbaged up with effects YOU CANT READ EM. this is what happens when you got people who proclaim themselves as GRAPHIC DESIGNERS, with NO TRAINING, NO ART ABILITY & MOST CANT DRAW STICK PEOPLE.
printers remind me of an old t-shirt i had:
IF YOU CANT
DAZZLE THEM WITH
YOUR BRILIANCE.....
THEN BAFFLE THEM
WITH ********!!!!!!!(bullcrap)
seems to be the creedo printers live by. my design sucks, but if i put in all those photshop effects.........it will look awesome!!!!! WRONG!!!!
BOB, you mentioned a machine to paint on stuff. they have em already.

 

[AnotherSignManiac]

I dont think they are going out, we actually push about 50/50 print and cut vinyl. They both have their place.

 

[gabagoo]

I still cut quite a bit of vinyl although in my laziness I have switched many signs over to digital.

I feel that the vinyl cutter will be with us for some time as I need it to do all the vehicles I get. I dont do wraps and dont see myself doing them in the near future....plenty of competition around here has ruined that market.
Good for me as all my vehicle customers like the look of vinyl cut graphics and really have not asked about wrapping.