HulkSmash
New Member
Absolutely it's in writing. It explains we buy based on jobs, and buy when a PO comes through immediately. 50% NONE refundable. up front 50% when done.
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- Thread starter James Burke
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Absolutely it's in writing. It explains we buy based on jobs, and buy when a PO comes through immediately. 50% NONE refundable. up front 50% when done.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
I trust you realize that in most states, you cannot keep 50% of something, if you cannot prove it was worth it. You can include the phrase a cancellation charge, but it must be a genuine estimate of the business' direct loss. Ya hafta be careful with this one. You can't make up abnormal laws of your own, to suit your needs only, regardless if the customer signs it or not.
No, that would be $1.82 per square foot plus shipping. Hems, grommets, original design, and installation extra, depending on needs.
I am a proud out-sourcer. I feel it is more fair to the client to get him or her the best quality product I can for a reasonable price. I am not encumbered by huge overhead and have no need to re-capture the money I spent on (now probably obsolete) printers, sewing machines, laminators, etc. I offer a range of creative services and project management using appropriate technologies available to the industry. My expertise is developing solutions for my clients; I am not a production facility.[/QUOTE]
You are an outlier in the craft of making signs. No offense was intended and I'm not sure why you always feel compelled to defend your business model and feel somehow singled out when one of us critiques those using your business model without fully including all the costs you seem to apply but the vast majority of us are in it to MAKE signs ourselves.
I get it, you are at a stage in your long and accomplished career that you're more in a design, maintenance and consultation mode. That doesn't mean the 95% or more of us still doing this with all the tools and approaches you look down your nose at are wrong. I happen to enjoy the entire process of signmaking from sales to design to production/fabrication to installation. I think most folks do.
Yes, MOST of us have these awful things like shops, equipment, tools, employees, etc. but it's how most shops operate and have built successful businesses and pursued the craft they love. I could have been a HVAC service tech or Electrician if I really just wanted a high wage job out of school, but my artistic goals would have never been realized.
The gripe I and probably others have and express about those using outsourcing is when they ignore both the intrinsic value of the work in total, use it for unethical advantage and/or have no clue what the appropriate markup SHOULD be on products we intend to resell. In our area, a banner with all those things factored in SHOULD cost a customer between $6-10 per square foot depending on size, coverage weight material, finishing options, etc. To give it away for $2.00 per square foot is not only unsustainable to the vendor doing it unless they are doing huge volume and lots of automation to lower their own costs, but adds to the already intense downward pressure on pricing for all those working in the trade.
It's one thing for a Signs365 or 4Over to have a 100,000 square foot facility with minimal employees and a high degree of automation to rely on for volume pricing to make a profit, it's quite another for a one or two person shop exacerbating the race to the bottom while trying to glean whatever jobs he or she can get from the local marketplace.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Oh no............... 
I actually agree with the toad. 
I actually agree with the toad. Besides what he said, I like having the quality control at my fingertips. I am fully responsible for everything and anything that goes out my door and if someone else f*cks it up, then I'm at their mercy. I want as little as possible with that.
No, that would be $1.82 per square foot plus shipping. Hems, grommets, original design, and installation extra, depending on needs.
I am a proud out-sourcer. I feel it is more fair to the client to get him or her the best quality product I can for a reasonable price. I am not encumbered by huge overhead and have no need to re-capture the money I spent on (now probably obsolete) printers, sewing machines, laminators, etc. I offer a range of creative services and project management using appropriate technologies available to the industry. My expertise is developing solutions for my clients; I am not a production facility.[/QUOTE]
So, please explain to me how the technology of placing a roll of printed media printed in my shop on a 10 year old printer that through careful upkeep still prints like the day it came out of the box under our watchful eyes into a 10 year old Royal Sovereign laminator and successfully laminating miles and miles of material over the years is inherently inferior of an approach to handing off everything to others mostly out of your local economy with no skin in the game of helping make your city a more livable place to live, work and play?
equippaint
Active Member
I like doing the work and get as much, if not more gratification out of it as I do getting paid. Brokering seems like a lonely unfulfilling business model to me.
Oh no...............
Besides what he said, I like having the quality control at my fingertips. I am fully responsible for everything and anything that goes out my door and if someone else f*cks it up, then I'm at their mercy. I want as little as possible with that.
There's hope for you after all. I just agreed with you agreeing with me and the reasons why.
Just don't ask me for a frickin' hug.
Heh, I was actually thinking the same thing, but the other way around......... there might be hope for you, huh ??
Let's not get too carried away, but there is plenty of good, sound advice and tips you offer that I agree with. Its when you can't put the "bad" Gino in his place and get ugly that things get negative. We can take it one post at a time, just like addicts take it "One Day At A Time".
I freaking knew it.
equippaint
Active Member
Hey ladies, dont let a minor disagreement spoil your bromance
I don't mind getting an estimate/quote/invoice from a customer on what they've previously gotten and the pricing. I find it a more open and honest practice.
I'm far more hesitant to work with someone who wants a project done similar to what they've done in the past, they throw out a ballpark figure of what they want to spend or have spent, but then won't provide any evidence they've actually spent that in the past.
I'm far more hesitant to work with someone who wants a project done similar to what they've done in the past, they throw out a ballpark figure of what they want to spend or have spent, but then won't provide any evidence they've actually spent that in the past.
Rob G Momentum
New Member
I have the same policy but curious what you have in place to secure final 50%. There are times when the customer is mysteriously out of town on install day and I end chasing money. Our purchase agreement states payment must be made before we install but that doesn't always happen unfortunately.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
When cash flow is short, these terms seem to matter more to all of us. For the most part, even though several of our term limits are payment upon completion, pickup or some other similar condition, we still allow 10 days for the mail to come & go, companies to process paperwork and so forth. After you're in it for years, ya finally figure out, they can't always be there, just because you want your money instantly. Sure, you pay for a meal when you walk out or pay at the register when leaving the department store, but it's a given, that's how business is done in that environment. You can fight it and demand your terms, but you could create some mighty angry customers who just might start looking elsewhere. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying to finance them, but you get your deposit up front, do the job and most people can wait a week for the final payment, unless they're working on a very limited shoestring. A week to wait for $1,000 or $64,000 is not unheard of in most busiesses.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
I agree. I'll go where the work is if the $ is there. To me, I'd rather do some traveling doing the same install all over then take on new job after new job. Once I do a job once or twice I'm usually about 50% faster the third time from the first. I like showing up to a place having done the same store package 10 times and I know how everything goes.
AMGearhart
New Member
My boss has had some installs of about 180 miles for ridiculously small amounts of vinyl on doors/signs. They definitely lost money on them but... the project manager knew those companies were on the verge of some mass expansions and/or rebranding. So staying in their good graces was well worth that extra bit of effort. And the company more than made it up in later business. It all just depends on the feel of the customer and the situation.
kcollinsdesign
Old member
I am not implying that any method is inherently inferior. Do whatever works for you. I'm just explaining my methods.
The sign business is notoriously slow to adapt to new trends. It is probably due to the nature of the market before computers and automation: A sign guy had to be adept at a multitude of production techniques, familiar and comfortable with installation and equipment, have no fear of heights, and, oh yeah, had to be a kick-ass artist. Unless somebody had that combination of skills, competition was few and far between. You didn't have to go looking for work, it came to you and you named the price.
Things are very different today. Businesses can order anything they want on line, and anybody with a bucket truck can install already fabricated signs. Being an artist can actually be a lliability in this age when anybody can do their own design on a computer (or knows someone who can). It makes more sense to me to concentrate on an aspect of the busineess that you do best, and take advantage of the many, varied out-sourcing opportunities available to our industry.