Double sided banner troubles

[NotADesigner]

I've had a few double sided banners in the two weeks, and it seems like I just can't seem to get it right

I am using a Sihl double sided banner, I believe 3118 SureBet Vinyl Banner 2-sided - 18 oz matte, on an Epson Surecolor S70670

It seems like I can get the first side printed out just fine.... then I roll it up carefully, flip the roll, and put it back in. And that's when the **** hits the fan...

The biggest demon has been the printhead rubbing against the media. No matter how much I try to make sure it's as straight as possible, I can't seem to keep it from bubbling up on the second time through the printer. I had ZERO problems on the first side of this 3' x 10' banner, but once I flip it over, it's ruined in the first foot!

Is there something I'm doing wrong? Something I'm missing? I know I can change my platen gap, but if the media is visibly raised from the surface of the printer, I would think that there is something going wrong with the media, either the media itself, or the way it is loaded. Do I need to wait a certain amount of time between printing each side?

For what it's worth, the first banner was a 4' x 9'. I printed it THREE times to get ONE finished banner, and even the one that we did wasn't acceptable, but since it was a donation and it could be touched up, we let it go. Now I'm doing a 3' x 10' for a paying customer and I'm trying to achieve perfection... it's simply not happening.

 

[J Hill Designs]

order it in and save on material and ibuprofin

 

[SightLine]

Let the first side dry longer....... for several hours. Preferably overnight even. The first side that is printed will be "grabby" on the machine, especially once it hits the hot platens. The longer it dries the less this will be a problem. At least that's how it goes with our Mimaki using 18oz pole banner pro.

 

[NotADesigner]

Here are some pictures to illustrate my struggles:

Nothing major to see here, at least nothing you can see from this picture:



Here's one of the marks, as you can see it is following the "wrinkle" in the media (left side):



Another mark on the other side (right):



This is outside of the job... but still... grrrr (right side)

 

[NotADesigner]

Let the first side dry longer....... for several hours. Preferably overnight even. The first side that is printed will be "grabby" on the machine, especially once it hits the hot platens. The longer it dries the less this will be a problem. At least that's how it goes with our Mimaki using 18oz pole banner pro.

That is what I was wondering... So when you do this, do you just roll it up and not print on that media for a while? Or do you cut it and let it sit off the roll?

I think that may be my issue, but I guess I'm posting here to rule out my own error first.

 

[Mosh]

Just do two single sided banners...Faster and cheaper in the long run.

 

[SightLine]

We try to always leave it on the roll which helps to make sure it goes back on the printer dead straight....

 

[NotADesigner]

Just do two single sided banners...Faster and cheaper in the long run.

What if I'm stubborn and want to do it my way? :Big Laugh

Just kidding...

But serious question - are there disadvantages to that method? Obviously it would weigh more. When you do a banner like that, how would you join them together? Tape all around, or just grommets? Are there any concerns with the "pocket" between the banners if they are going to be outside?

Obviously I'm not saving any media here, so using 2x the media isn't really a concern... I am just not sure of the pros/cons of each method since I'm new to wide format. I don't know how other people do it.

 

[Mosh]

If it is outside I just give them two banners, small ones I know how to print double sided so I don't have a problem. Anything under 8' is simple. Still doing two single sided is easier, LOL.

Are you letting the banner sit for a couple hours between printing sides, that helps so the material is not "soft"....

 

[GAC05]

When I do these I lower the pre heat way down, print with the head in the high position and don't use the take up reel.
A heavy load of ink on the first side seems to soften up the banner material so that it tunnels easily when it is warmed up for the second side.
Not sure what the deal is with the take up reel - works fine on the first side but causes those head strikes as it winds up the second side.
I keep it loose and roll it up by hand so there is no tension on the material coming out from under the head.
Mosh is right about the length, the short ones are easy but those 10 to 12 footers are a pain.
I wonder how the guys using the HP latex printers do with these. They have built in double sided alignment features but their printing temps need to be pretty high.



wayne k
guam usa

 

[NotADesigner]

What sort of heat settings do you use? I'm at 96/96/102 right now. Had it higher, but worried it might be making things too soft. I like the tip about not using the take up reel. I will probably wait til tomorrow afternoon to print the second side of this one, I am printing the first side right now. Of course, it's coming off flawlessly

 

[GAC05]

We are pretty close I run the pre at 90-92 the print at 94-96 and about 115 for the dryer.
With the 1304 I can mess with the temps as it runs to tweak things a little.

wayne k
guam usa

 

[Z SIGNS]

As others have said why not just print 2 banners and be done with it.
Banner material is cheap.
If your doing this to save money the problem of trying to make this work is not your biggest problem.

 

[NotADesigner]

As others have said why not just print 2 banners and be done with it.
Banner material is cheap.
If your doing this to save money the problem of trying to make this work is not your biggest problem.

Not knowing any better about the headaches involved in producing a double sided banner, I'd rather sell a double sided banner than two banners. I just prefer the finished product of a double sided banner vs. two separate banners. Again, we're new at this, and maybe just don't know any better, but if doing a double sided banner is possible, that's what we prefer.

Not concerned about the $$$ for media, we've certainly wasted a lot of stuff learning large format.

 

[Biker Scout]

I used to just print the two banners on the same side end to end. Then fold it in half and send it off to get sewn together. I got tired of the head strikes myself, and it seems that even waiting a day to let the banner cure still didn't alleviate the tunneling that occurred when the ink softens the banner material coupled with the heat. And let's face it, when someone wants a banner, they usually need it yesterday and never give you enough lead time to do it right. Fortunately, I lived in a town where there was an awning manufacturer, and could get my banner back sewn the same day.

Now I just don't mess with banners. Too much headache for very little profit. Outsource only.

Now if you had a LED UV cure roll to roll printer, you could easily do back to back without waiting or heating up the material.

 

[Typestries]

A little insight from an outsource vendor for banners:

If size warrants, and particularly for street pole banners, we will print them on one of the flatbeds on both sides of the media. The alignment is dead on, and the process is very repeatable for long runs. We add finishing marks, which are also accurate and improves fit and finish.

Smaller one offs we use two layers of 18oz finished back to back. by putting the art head to head and folding over the top edge. Works well, and makes for a very durable product.

For over road applications where wind slits are required, we will do a print on 18oz blockout, and then print and apply a low cost vinyl to the second side. In the shop we have a jig for this process. It's way faster than monkeying with any of our printers, and for our workflow it works right every time, first time. This method also allows for stitching of webbing and d-rings, and keeps the overall weight down versus a large fold over of this magnitude.

Let me know if we can be of help-either advice or production, for your banner outsource projects.

 

[GaSouthpaw]

I try to stay away from double-sided, if only because I can print two and put them together quicker than doing a true double-sided one.
When doing them with pole pockets I print a long, continuous print of the banners so, when folded in the middle, they end up back to back. I use VHB along the edges (though banner tape on the edges is usually sufficient) and to make the pole pockets (where banner tape usually doesn't hold up). A grommet on either side of where the pole pocket helps stop the wind from ripping the banner material (when properly applied, VHB isn't going to give).
A regular double-sided banner, I'd do exactly the same, except with banner tape to hold together.

 

[NotADesigner]

Well the second side is coming off now, and so far, no problems. I can't believe all I had to do was let it sit overnight. I'm not good at letting things sit, I like to get stuff done right away.

Thanks everyone for the ideas/suggestions. If I run into any more trouble, I have some more ideas to try!