Estimating Software

[CanuckSigns]

Signvox looked promising to us, however, there were 2 issues we had with it;
1- subscription based, i don't like the idea of paying for something and not owning it, I don't "rent" any other tools in the shop, I don't want to rent software either.

2- not all of our employees are computer savvy, and when we did the webinar, even I found the process daunting, and I'm a 27 year old who has been around computers my entire life, there is not a chance that my father (our sales rep) would ever be able to use signVOX, he's just started to get comfortable with Estimate.

 

[CES020]

SignVox doesn't make you signs - It makes you money, and helps you make more signs, in a more efficient way.. so you can become more profitable ..

Tell me how it does that. Because it helps you quote? Because it helps you schedule?

There are tools that do both of those things. What does it do superior to any other scheduling program?

I was a master scheduler for a production floor that had about 100 people working there, so I understand how important scheduling is, I'm just trying to understand why you think it does what it does so well that it makes you more money.

I'm not arguing, I'm just curious, so please read my question as a curious based question rather than any other tone.

 

[SolitaryT]

I've used Cyrius and Activity, and we've just recently switched to SignVOX at my recommendation. I've never had the freedom to customize and track things the way I can with SignVOX. It's so much more than estimating, but even if you were to use it JUST for estimating, there are so many ways to customize it to build the product you want down to the penny, ways to factor in every detail from vinyl usage and installation right down to ink consumption and print time. It is an investment, but so is college, and when it's all said and done, it's the proverbial difference between a 5 and 6 figure salary. That's my 2¢.

 

[TXFB.INS]

1- subscription based, i don't like the idea of paying for something and not owning it, I don't "rent" any other tools in the shop, I don't want to rent software either.

This is our biggest reason for not using the program, you never control / have the software. even when you have other "subscriptions" say a newspaper/magazine once you have the product in hand you can do with as you please. SV is always being controlled by someone else and at a different location. what happens if the internet goes down, not only the user internet but what about SV servers? how are you able to work when you rely on a "tool" that is not in the shop.


By no means is this a bash but a serious point of concern.


The other point is obviously the price, 129 per month adds up REALLY QUICK. Yes all the users rave about how it helps, and I have no bases to disagree, but does SV bring people in the door? or more exactly will it bring people in the door who will spend money? SV seems to do all these things that makes it easier once the customer has placed the order or contacted to bid on a job. This connects back to the fact this is a SAAS program, you have to pay regardless. If you owned the software that is one less overhead cost you have to cover. Lets face it we are doing this to make enough money to provide for our families and if that is not being done then you have to change until you are able to do

 

[john1]

I'm sure you guys don't own your cell phone service either lol, stop renting cell phone service!

 

[TXFB.INS]

I'm sure you guys don't own your cell phone service either lol, stop renting cell phone service!

For me its not the "service" that is the question/issue.

since Cell phone are brought up, here is a scenario

you get service from XYZ and once you get the phone you are able to customize and edit it as you want both with physical changes (case, screen protector, etc...) and digitally ( background image, themes,) if you are an advanced user you can edit the ROM.

This goes along for awhile then XYZ goes out of business or changes their prices and you are forced to look elsewhere. this is easy to do by simply replacing the SIM card in the phone, because you have/own the phone. You never miss out on using the phone and you don't have to learn something new and/or start the whole process of re-customizing the new phone.

How can this transition take place with a SAAS Program?

 

[jayhawksigns]

We upgraded our Estimate software to everything we might want before they switched to their subscription based service. Same idea here that we want the software here.

I see more and more apps going that route, guess in the end it will just save me money cause I won't be spending money on software that I can't just pay for once and be done with it. I won't pay month to month for software. Now, paying for a month to month service like mobile access to our data that is also stored on remote servers, thats different. Core functionality though HAS to be a one time charge.

 

[CanuckSigns]

This is our biggest reason for not using the program, you never control / have the software. even when you have other "subscriptions" say a newspaper/magazine once you have the product in hand you can do with as you please. SV is always being controlled by someone else and at a different location. what happens if the internet goes down, not only the user internet but what about SV servers? how are you able to work when you rely on a "tool" that is not in the shop.


By no means is this a bash but a serious point of concern.


The other point is obviously the price, 129 per month adds up REALLY QUICK. Yes all the users rave about how it helps, and I have no bases to disagree, but does SV bring people in the door? or more exactly will it bring people in the door who will spend money? SV seems to do all these things that makes it easier once the customer has placed the order or contacted to bid on a job. This connects back to the fact this is a SAAS program, you have to pay regardless. If you owned the software that is one less overhead cost you have to cover. Lets face it we are doing this to make enough money to provide for our families and if that is not being done then you have to change until you are able to do

If sign vox came out with 2 pricing models, 1 subscription based, and one flat rate, one time fee, I would consider it.

if you keep signvox for 5 years, you have invested $7740 and you have absolutely nothing to show for it, you can't resell it to another sign company if you decide to move on to another piece of software.

If you cancel your service with signvox, are you still able to log on and look at past jobs? if so, for how long after it has been canceled? Even with Estimate's new subscription service, you still download the actual program to your local machine, if you cancel the service, you can still open the program and review old jobs to get pricing etc.

 

[121a]

We are are a three man shop and I designed an excel spread sheet to cost of material per sqft. From there I added a sqft calculator and have set to use the sqft to calculate a price to charge the customer. Works pretty well and it is free. Took maybe 1-2 hours to properly set up.

 

[Kevin-shopVOX]

If sign vox came out with 2 pricing models, 1 subscription based, and one flat rate, one time fee, I would consider it.

if you keep signvox for 5 years, you have invested $7740 and you have absolutely nothing to show for it, you can't resell it to another sign company if you decide to move on to another piece of software.

If you cancel your service with signvox, are you still able to log on and look at past jobs? if so, for how long after it has been canceled? Even with Estimate's new subscription service, you still download the actual program to your local machine, if you cancel the service, you can still open the program and review old jobs to get pricing etc.

We won't. It's a SaaS product & service. Plain and simple. Locally installed is not what we are nor want to be.

I have a hard time fathoming that someone would rather spend $12k up front (because that's would you'd pay for a typical product as robust as ours for all the bells and whistles) plus on average $50/mo for support that more than likely won't be as good as ours (in fact i know it won't be), just to have a program installed locally. On top of that you'd have to pay roughly a grand for each additional user outside of the base they give you. $129/mo? C'mon its a steal. You can easily bill that into your signs. How many jobs do you sell a month? I'll roughly put a number out there..lets say 20/wk? more? I would would think at least 20 jobs big & small. That's 80 a month. Ok lets do some quick math...add $1.50 per job. That's 120 extra a month income. My point here is its pretty easy to find $129/mo and have your signVOX account paid for without laying out a serious chunk of cash to have a tool like this in your shop. That cash could be used for something else. On top of that if you don't like it you aren't tied to a very expensive paperweight. The point of entry is very very affordable with signVOX.

Addressing the long term payment. Yes you have to pay every month. If you cancel you have until the end of the 30 days from last payment to access your account to perform your mass exit of exports of info that is available to you 24/7 of every day. If you stay with us you would have paid $7740 over that period. However you are not looking at what you may have gained. Complete oversight on your part. It is not what it costs you, but what is the return on your investment. That is the only thing that matters.

Let's use the example that most active signVOX users experience. Once signVOX is up and running, a time savings of roughly an hour a day can realistically be found. If I tie that to the average hourly cost based on fixed expenses I'd be looking at about $50/hr. That's $50/day. Multiply that time the average amount of time your open per months which is about 20 days. That is roughly $1000 in time savings alone. Ok so lets keep track here. You've spent $129 thus far and have gained $1000 in virtual dollars. Now that's per user. 2-3 users, I'm looking at roughly $2k - $3k. Ok not real money. I get that but to take it one step further. What do you do with the saved time? Go home early? Sit on your rump? Read and comment on more threads? More than likely not. You'll use it to get and keep more customers as well as produce more work to be billed and collected on. Now we are talking hard cash. My average invoice is $607.30. I'm not sure about any one else's reading this but if i used that time to get just one more job a month my investment in signVOX is 5 fold. Its nearly 3 fold if your average invoice is only $300. Not to mention the system helps stay more organized and communicate better internally which just might actually save a job or two from being screwed up. I will leave that part out of the equation though. I've had a customer tell me signVOX actually eliminated the need for an employee position of $28k a year. $28k a year! 4x the annual signVOX price. Worth every penny in their opinion.

So over over 5 years as a 2 man shop:

SignVOX subscription $129/mo x 60mos = $7740
1 Extra job at $607.30/mo x 60mos = $36,438
1 extra job at $300 avg invoice x 60mos= $18,000
Theoretical $ in time savings (that is if you believe time is money) to get and keep more customers x 2 users = $120,000
ROI = Frickin' awesome.

ROI is the only thing that matters be it a tangible product or an intangible. It is all that matters. Period.

If its a matter of renting something you or others can't get over, not having that tangible product in hand, I completely get that. It's a personal thing. But you can't argue the ROI is not worth the investment you make in your business of our monthly price. There is plenty to show for it, it just depends on your point of view.

 

[Grizzly]

SignVOX

In a nut shell, your options are probably an excel spreadsheet, estimate, an adobe form, or signtracker, since you don't want to spend very much money.

But since you were looking for opinions on software you came here which is where I came when my current system of estimating needed an update. So here is my 2 cents (plus some)

After reading through this thread it's sounds you don't really want to pay very much. Excel, Adobe Forms, Estimate, or SignTracker are probably your best options. Here is my thoughts:
Estimate I tried and could never really get to work like I wanted it too. I looked into signtracker but it just seemed a little too simple. I then looked at Cyrious software. It's expensive. I always hit the $10,000 mark on the stuff that I wanted. And then I wasn't even sure that I would like it. So, we went with SignVOX. We are a 7 man shop. 5 use the software. I tried the spreadsheet idea. It's okay. Problem: Try and simultaneously update it. It tells you someone else has it open and causes issues. SignVOX - Awesome. It's live all the time. Unlimited users and I can log in anywhere in the shop, on my flatbed computer while its printing, on the zund while it's cutting.
I also tried Adobe Forms which I created myself. They worked for a while and worked well. The problem came having to save a new file for every job. Well after the 10th job for the same person it was really hard to find a previous job since most customers want to pay what they did last time. And most of the time we charge the same so it saved us the hassle of having to re-figure the price. I also didn't want to have to go to the file cabinet and look through 1000's of printed job orders to find the job they were looking for. Yes, even filed very well, it still takes more time the than SignVOX, which makes finding previous jobs really easy. For me it saves a ton of time and headache trying to find out the "just do the same thing I did last time" comment.
I was also worried about the so called "renting" of the software. But Signtracker and Casper both do the same thing. (I didn't like Casper because you were basically doing remote desktop on a glorified Microsoft product.)
The best thing may be to try something like SignVOX for a couple months. If you don't like it, stop and find something else. Your only out a couple hundred bucks. The comments are right. Yes after 7 years of using signVOX I wont have a physical program but I like that SignVOX is constantly updating. I hope they grow as well as I do. We've already thrown into the parking lot a $20,000 Graphtec Printer/Cutter, a $20,000 HP 5000, a $60,000 Mutoh Toucan, a $30,000 Mutoh Falcon, and our originally $30,000 Anagraph Computer, Scanner, and Cutter. In a few years, our 2005 $350,000 Gandi Flatbed really probably be completely useless too. The amount I've thrown away in equipment greatly outnumbers the "waste" you get when using a monthly based program like SignVOX. But we're upgrading and so should your software. Even though it seems like a lot of money, I'm still glad we bought that equipment because it made our jobs easier, including our estimate software SignVOX.

Also, as far was pulling in past data, SignVOX offered to pull Quickbooks data into signvox. I'm sure they could help you with past data. We opted not too since our industry changes so much. How we priced things 10 years ago has completely changed compared to how we price now. SignVOX is also crazy detailed on margins and cost based pricing if you set it up correctly. It takes time to setup but so does any program if you want it to work correctly.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Signvox looked promising to us, however, there were 2 issues we had with it;
1- subscription based, i don't like the idea of paying for something and not owning it, I don't "rent" any other tools in the shop, I don't want to rent software either.

In either instance, you don't really own the software. Rather it's installed locally or installed on the cloud, what people are paying for when they pay for software is the ability to use the software. What everyone is in debate over is what makes up that "ability". Some give more control to the customer, some give less.

In some instances, you don't have the ability to resell the software, not legally anyway, based on the EULA. Some companies use the honor system, some companies (like the ones that make my embroidery software) have a little more active role in making sure the EULA is enforced. If you want the upgrade pricing, you have to send in your old CD and corresponding dongle to get the upgrade pricing. That's a difference of 13k if you don't send in your old stuff between upgrade pricing and buying full price. So it's worth it to send in your old stuff. That's why you don't see the software that I use on ebay or craigslist like you see Adobe products. The only time someone will have a version of that software for sell is if they are going out of business.

 

[DSC]

Tell me how it does that. Because it helps you quote? Because it helps you schedule?

There are tools that do both of those things. What does it do superior to any other scheduling program?

I was a master scheduler for a production floor that had about 100 people working there, so I understand how important scheduling is, I'm just trying to understand why you think it does what it does so well that it makes you more money.

I'm not arguing, I'm just curious, so please read my question as a curious based question rather than any other tone.

Well First of all the most obvious one that sticks out to me is that it would eliminate the need for a "master scheduling" postion, or some of it anyway .. It helps a lot with that, doesn't completely take the human function out, but does help ..

It is really more than just a "scheduling" and "estimating" program as well .. It serves so many other functions than that -
From the simplicity of the materials lists to the template functions to being able to input entire catalogues from you vendors so you can resell at a pos functionality if your a retail shop, it just seems so simple to me..


Kevin? can extrapolate better than I can on those things ..

I guess there are several tools that do several things and serve the same function - so do you buy/trust a DEWALT or MILWAUKEE Drill 50ft up or a ryobi?

To me it is a question of getting the best for my clients and what serves THEM best, for example - we only use Komatex - IMO it is the best, and has served the best in our field tests .. I don't want to get into a conversation about opinions on the best pvc product or tools but it is just an example.

Whatever helps US serve our clients in the best way possible, make US more profitable.. no matter what the "tool" is..

SignVOx is and does that for our business ..

If there was something that was better trust me I would be using that.. I am completely objective about these things..

 

[DSC]

This is our biggest reason for not using the program, you never control / have the software. even when you have other "subscriptions" say a newspaper/magazine once you have the product in hand you can do with as you please. SV is always being controlled by someone else and at a different location. what happens if the internet goes down, not only the user internet but what about SV servers? how are you able to work when you rely on a "tool" that is not in the shop.


By no means is this a bash but a serious point of concern.


The other point is obviously the price, 129 per month adds up REALLY QUICK. Yes all the users rave about how it helps, and I have no bases to disagree, but does SV bring people in the door? or more exactly will it bring people in the door who will spend money? SV seems to do all these things that makes it easier once the customer has placed the order or contacted to bid on a job. This connects back to the fact this is a SAAS program, you have to pay regardless. If you owned the software that is one less overhead cost you have to cover. Lets face it we are doing this to make enough money to provide for our families and if that is not being done then you have to change until you are able to do

The internet is not going to "go down" .. maybe in your local area if there is something weather-wise or an accident or something like that.. If you are in business today, you should have several ways of connecting to the internet at any given time from anywhere, no exception.

For example if the internet goes down here, I have a smart phone that I can use as a hub and connect everything wi fi in my shop to that.. problem solved .. I have EVERYTHING in our shop in a cloud.. pos, work files, creative software .. It is the wave of the future.. we are faster, more proficient, and better for it..

I trust the internet more than I trust the hard drives that back up our files . Those have failed more than the internet has in my experience.. I've never had to replace an internet, but I have had to replace a hard drive..

"but does SV bring people in the door? or more exactly will it bring people in the door who will spend money?"

NO, that is the job of your marketing plan. .to rely on a POS system for that seems like you might be thinking in the wrong direction.. It CAN however free up time for you to work on your marketing plan... ?

"Lets face it we are doing this to make enough money to provide for our families and if that is not being done then you have to change until you are able to do" -

Not really an argument for SignVox, that seems like an entirely different issue if you are having those problems .. not a bash, just trying to explain..

 

[DSC]

Signvox looked promising to us, however, there were 2 issues we had with it;
1- subscription based, i don't like the idea of paying for something and not owning it, I don't "rent" any other tools in the shop, I don't want to rent software either.

2- not all of our employees are computer savvy, and when we did the webinar, even I found the process daunting, and I'm a 27 year old who has been around computers my entire life, there is not a chance that my father (our sales rep) would ever be able to use signVOX, he's just started to get comfortable with Estimate.

If you really think about it, you never own anything .. Yes you pay a cost for something, then you don't pay again for that same exact thing.

But the reality is you only have it for as long as it works, or until you sell it.. And the entire time you own it it either depreciates or degrades in function .. Then you buy another one .. It is the same thing .. just spread the cost over the life of the "thing", and you get your monthly fee. No?

The difference is, this is maintained, upgraded, and never degrades, and will always function, at it's best ..

Just a question, how would you want your sales rep to use the software?

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Then you buy another one .. It is the same thing .. just spread the cost over the life of the "thing", and you get your monthly fee. No?

The difference is, this is maintained, upgraded, and never degrades, and will always function, at it's best ..

This can actually be an argument against a subscription based system though.

Take for instance Adobe's setup. If you only use at most, Design Premium or Production Premium packages in your workflow based on current pricing structures in 7 yrs you will start to be showing a positive return on buying and upgrading every CD release then doing the Creative Cloud. Now that's when you are starting out and you have that option to do either one or as long as they have both options available. And you plan on being in business that long to where you will need that software.

Also, even if you do the Creative Cloud, as I understand it, you still have to download and install the software on the system. I could see a little more advantage if you could log online on any system with sufficient capabilities and do your designing from anywhere. Even with that price gap, that feature to me, might make it worth it, since I wouldn't have to worry about only two computers and making sure one of those two computers was with me.

However, the downside is if the internet is down. And it does go down rather it's local or where your stuff is hosted at, that still presents a problem. How much of a problem depends on the value that you assign to it. Some value that issue more then others.

Also, some people have a "no internet connected" policy on some computers. Rather that's for protection from virus or to keep employees from playing "Farmville" and harvesting their crops instead of finishing that logo.

I could make arguments for both setups, which is why I think both should always be available. Everything has to be evaluated on an individual shop's basis. Some things I have subscription based, some things I'm vehemently against it. It's not always going to be the same case for everyone though.

 

[DSC]

This can actually be an argument against a subscription based system though.

Take for instance Adobe's setup. If you only use at most, Design Premium or Production Premium packages in your workflow based on current pricing structures in 7 yrs you will start to be showing a positive return on buying and upgrading every CD release then doing the Creative Cloud. Now that's when you are starting out and you have that option to do either one or as long as they have both options available. And you plan on being in business that long to where you will need that software.

Also, even if you do the Creative Cloud, as I understand it, you still have to download and install the software on the system. I could see a little more advantage if you could log online on any system with sufficient capabilities and do your designing from anywhere. Even with that price gap, that feature to me, might make it worth it, since I wouldn't have to worry about only two computers and making sure one of those two computers was with me.

However, the downside is if the internet is down. And it does go down rather it's local or where your stuff is hosted at, that still presents a problem. How much of a problem depends on the value that you assign to it. Some value that issue more then others.

Also, some people have a "no internet connected" policy on some computers. Rather that's for protection from virus or to keep employees from playing "Farmville" and harvesting their crops instead of finishing that logo.

I could make arguments for both setups, which is why I think both should always be available. Everything has to be evaluated on an individual shop's basis. Some things I have subscription based, some things I'm vehemently against it. It's not always going to be the same case for everyone though.

I am not sure how you see that as an argument against only subscription based software, if it is , then it would be an argument against anything you have ever bought. Besides you would just work the cost into your overhead and adjust your pricing up or down accordingly in your monthly expense calendar - which SIgnVox does for you. - (If I am reading it correctly - let me know if I am not, I am referring to the bold area you highlighted.)

Again I will say it .. the internet is not going to "go down" ...

Literally satellites would have to get blown out of the sky and the earth woud have to have massive earthquakes and super volcanoes erupting .. at that point I am not caring about my sign shop ..

If people are going online and not doing there job on site, then they need to be FIRED, or management needs to revamp their incentive systems .. People are not victims of their environment, they create it.

Besides their are many ways to keep a computer online and block or only allow them to serve certain functions, sites, or people.. easy..


I agree with you on the last point, and backup everything online, and here in the shop, have a backlog of hardware dvd files as well as what ever the companies I subscribe to are doing .. We also have hard copies if Adobe products as well

I can honestly say that there is a 99.99% chance of nothing ever happening on our end - besides armageddon

(the .01%), because you just never know.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

I am not sure how you see that as an argument against only subscription based software, if it is , then it would be an argument against anything you have ever bought. Besides you would just work the cost into your overhead and adjust your pricing up or down accordingly in your monthly expense calendar - which SIgnVox does for you. - (If I am reading it correctly - let me know if I am not, I am referring to the bold area you highlighted.)

It would depend on the cost. Based on current Adobe pricing structure for their one time fees versus their Creative Cloud.

Now this is using Design Premium/Production Premium costs versus the entire Creative Cloud. I use those two Premium packages as I would imagine that more like then not (at least 51% of the time) people on here use Design Premium in their money earning workflow and don't need (not want, but need) the Master Suite level.

After 7 successive upgrades using the old method, you are actually saving money doing the old way then after 7 yrs of renewing your subscription service. That translates into more profit, because your tools are costing you less after a certain time. Not all subscription models are like that, but based on the pricing structure (currently in place) for Adobe's cloud versus using those suites (if you need the Master Suite then the cloud is the way to go, or if you need programs (again need, not want) that aren't offered other then through the cloud (which isn't me, but maybe you or someone else)).

Now if Adobe instituted 2 or 3 yr plans with respective discounts, I could see that changing the game, but as it stands now, that's what my math came out to. The biggest reason for this is due to with the old way, you still get upgrade pricing after that initial purchase. With the subscription model, you do not. That's the biggest reason for this. The only way to do that is to add longer contract plans with discounts. That would push back when the old method starts to save people money. Push it back far enough, then it become irrelevant. 7 yrs is still a feasible time for a return. It just depends on how you value the other factors as well.

Now, I eliminated a person's "want" from the equation. I did that, because if you just "want" to have something, then price really shouldn't be a deciding factor other then can I afford it. Not with regard to a C/B ratio between the two.

Again I will say it .. the internet is not going to "go down" ...

Literally satellites would have to get blown out of the sky and the earth woud have to have massive earthquakes and super volcanoes erupting .. at that point I am not caring about my sign shop ..

I'm not talking about the entire internet. I'm talking about a segment of it. Things do happen and you can't access things at a time. I had one hosting site that went down for a day. That was a day my website at the time wasn't up.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Crap like that happens, it's rare, but it does happen. It's how much risk value you place on a rare instance like that. Now is the entire internet down? No. But my website was. I honestly don't care why it was, but for a day it was. That's the kind of thing that happens. Go Daddy had their own problems. Stuff like that happens. If my embroidery software was online interface and their hosting place went down for a time, that's a time that I wasn't able to do anything. The internet wasn't totally down, but I couldn't use my tools, because they were.

If people are going online and not doing there job on site, then they need to be FIRED, or management needs to revamp their incentive systems .. People are not victims of their environment, they create it.

Besides their are many ways to keep a computer online and block or only allow them to serve certain functions, sites, or people.. easy..

That's true. That is a valid way to handle it, the other way is a valid way as well. It just depends on what that company wants to do to handle it. If all depends on what that employee needs to do at that computer during work hours. If they actually need internet/server access to do their job.


Edit: I thought I would add this in there as well. Even though I used Design Premium/Production Premium as the base for my example here. In my particular instance, I can get by with Design Standard for my Adobe needs for my particular workflow. That means my savings are actually quicker to be realized versus going with the Cloud. Also my example is going under the assumption that you have to pay full price initially for your programs the old method. If you were able to get upgrade pricing when the Cloud first came out, that also would lower the time that it takes for that return. So my example is using the worse case scenario with regard to purchasing the programs the old method.

 

[CES020]

You might be forgetting that SV was taken down about a month ago when GoDaddy went down. That was a day of no access to SV.

It's not about the internet going down forever, it's about things just like that that are beyond your control. If it's down, I can't quote, I can run production schedules, etc.

I think there's some really flawed logic out there.

The case was made that it SAVES you money because it makes you so efficient. If you use that logic, then you need to spend $130 a month on that, then you need to buy a Rogue Roller because, after all, that thing makes you some serious money because it's efficient.

Then you need to buy a new, high speed grand format printer, because, after all, that thing cranks out work and makes you more efficient.

Don't forget the office printer. You need to spend $30,000 on one of those because it saves you money on all your office printing.

By the time I'm finished spending all this money to be efficient, I'll be in the poor house.

Oh wait, I need to get a new company vehicle because it gets better MPG than the current one. So I figure I'm a good $250,000 in debt now, but dag gone, I am running one efficient shop!

We don't do wraps, so the wrap calculator isn't something that helps us. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what makes this better than, let's say, a dry erase job board?

In order to achieve all the savings mentioned, one would have to assume you were running no system and you had large backlogs of work and the place was a disaster. In reality, if you already have quoting and scheduling systems in place, then it might streamline those slightly, but you're by no means going to save these imaginary $100'000's of dollars.

Again, I'm not by any means suggesting it's not a great package. I've asked about 3 times now for someone to explain what it does that basic software (not $10,000 packages) won't do. Maybe it's got some magic feature that really does do it trick, but I haven't seen anyone mention anything other than "it got us all organized and on the same page".

That only helps if you're disorganized and not on the same page.

 

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It would depend on the cost. Based on current Adobe pricing structure for their one time fees versus their Creative Cloud.

Now this is using Design Premium/Production Premium costs versus the entire Creative Cloud. I use those two Premium packages as I would imagine that more like then not (at least 51% of the time) people on here use Design Premium in their money earning workflow and don't need (not want, but need) the Master Suite level.

After 7 successive upgrades using the old method, you are actually saving money doing the old way then after 7 yrs of renewing your subscription service. That translates into more profit, because your tools are costing you less after a certain time. Not all subscription models are like that, but based on the pricing structure (currently in place) for Adobe's cloud versus using those suites (if you need the Master Suite then the cloud is the way to go, or if you need programs (again need, not want) that aren't offered other then through the cloud (which isn't me, but maybe you or someone else)).

Now if Adobe instituted 2 or 3 yr plans with respective discounts, I could see that changing the game, but as it stands now, that's what my math came out to. The biggest reason for this is due to with the old way, you still get upgrade pricing after that initial purchase. With the subscription model, you do not. That's the biggest reason for this. The only way to do that is to add longer contract plans with discounts. That would push back when the old method starts to save people money. Push it back far enough, then it become irrelevant. 7 yrs is still a feasible time for a return. It just depends on how you value the other factors as well.

Now, I eliminated a person's "want" from the equation. I did that, because if you just "want" to have something, then price really shouldn't be a deciding factor other then can I afford it. Not with regard to a C/B ratio between the two.



I'm not talking about the entire internet. I'm talking about a segment of it. Things do happen and you can't access things at a time. I had one hosting site that went down for a day. That was a day my website at the time wasn't up.

That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. Crap like that happens, it's rare, but it does happen. It's how much risk value you place on a rare instance like that. Now is the entire internet down? No. But my website was. I honestly don't care why it was, but for a day it was. That's the kind of thing that happens. Go Daddy had their own problems. Stuff like that happens. If my embroidery software was online interface and their hosting place went down for a time, that's a time that I wasn't able to do anything. The internet wasn't totally down, but I couldn't use my tools, because they were.




That's true. That is a valid way to handle it, the other way is a valid way as well. It just depends on what that company wants to do to handle it. If all depends on what that employee needs to do at that computer during work hours. If they actually need internet/server access to do their job.


Edit: I thought I would add this in there as well. Even though I used Design Premium/Production Premium as the base for my example here. In my particular instance, I can get by with Design Standard for my Adobe needs for my particular workflow. That means my savings are actually quicker to be realized versus going with the Cloud. Also my example is going under the assumption that you have to pay full price initially for your programs the old method. If you were able to get upgrade pricing when the Cloud first came out, that also would lower the time that it takes for that return. So my example is using the worse case scenario with regard to purchasing the programs the old method.

I will keep my response short on this - well I'l try -

Just about the internet - The risk is so small I personally would not take that into consideration .



Good Conversation - !