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Estimating Software

DSC

DSC

New Member
CES020 said:
So I figure I'm a good $250,000 in debt now, but dag gone, I am running one efficient shop!
Click to expand...

That is completely reasonable, and probably normal for a lot of companies out there .. for a company doing 1 million year, I'll take that Debt!! all day ..
 
C

CanuckSigns

Active Member
I'm going to take my hat out of this ring, The monthly subscription plan is what really gets me, I'm not an adobe user, but hopefully Corel doesn't follow in their footsteps.
 
Kevin-shopVOX

Kevin-shopVOX

New Member
CES020 said:
You might be forgetting that SV was taken down about a month ago when GoDaddy went down. That was a day of no access to SV.

It's not about the internet going down forever, it's about things just like that that are beyond your control. If it's down, I can't quote, I can run production schedules, etc.

I think there's some really flawed logic out there.

The case was made that it SAVES you money because it makes you so efficient. If you use that logic, then you need to spend $130 a month on that, then you need to buy a Rogue Roller because, after all, that thing makes you some serious money because it's efficient.

Then you need to buy a new, high speed grand format printer, because, after all, that thing cranks out work and makes you more efficient.

Don't forget the office printer. You need to spend $30,000 on one of those because it saves you money on all your office printing.

By the time I'm finished spending all this money to be efficient, I'll be in the poor house.

Oh wait, I need to get a new company vehicle because it gets better MPG than the current one. So I figure I'm a good $250,000 in debt now, but dag gone, I am running one efficient shop!

We don't do wraps, so the wrap calculator isn't something that helps us. I'm still waiting for someone to tell me what makes this better than, let's say, a dry erase job board?

In order to achieve all the savings mentioned, one would have to assume you were running no system and you had large backlogs of work and the place was a disaster. In reality, if you already have quoting and scheduling systems in place, then it might streamline those slightly, but you're by no means going to save these imaginary $100'000's of dollars.

Again, I'm not by any means suggesting it's not a great package. I've asked about 3 times now for someone to explain what it does that basic software (not $10,000 packages) won't do. Maybe it's got some magic feature that really does do it trick, but I haven't seen anyone mention anything other than "it got us all organized and on the same page".

That only helps if you're disorganized and not on the same page.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure where you are coming from. And I'm starting to think you are trying to belittle us.

Are you trying to say your way is the right way? That everyone should be as organized as you with your current system? That they're idiots or suckers because they use a tool, that is priced higher than what you deem of value to help them run their business? That your opinion on value should be someone else's? I'm a little lost why your attention is pointed towards signVOX and the things people want to buy or not.

You'd rather compare my product to your dry erase boards and spreadsheets but not to a comparable product that's worth 10K? You want me to say its only worth the material cost of your markers, eraser, vinyl to make the grid and a free program for spreadsheets? Remember apples to apples.

You wanted opinions. Plenty of voluntary opinions were given to you were they not? I'm not exactly sure what you are looking for..what that A-HA moment will be. You really have to try it for yourself to find out if it is something that benefits you...and you only. There is plenty of info on our site, within this forum and just by picking up the phone and asking me. We are an open book. Yes it can do this..no it can't. Pretty straight forward to make an educated decision. Right now your opinion is just that...your opinion and a fairly baseless one from what I can gather. You are entitled to it. To me though, it just sounds like belly aching because you think we are too expensive and it doesn't produce a physical product that you get money for.

Yes signVOX was affected by the GoDaddy DNS issue. Did catch us by surprise but measures have been put in place so that it doesn't happen again. We were down for a couple of hours and only affected a few users at certain ISPs. Not everyone. Sheet happens what can you say. We focus on minimizing things like that that happen few and far between.
 
CES020

CES020

New Member
I'm not trying to belittle SV. I have said repeatedly that it probably does what it does well.

What I think is insane is trying to convince people with sales tactics that it'll save you $100,000's of dollars by just installing and using it. Can it? Sure, in the right condition, but does a 2 man shop plan to get those results? I seriously doubt it.

I'm not belly aching over SV. I couldn't care less about SV or it's success or failure. I just have asked what makes it so great and all I get is the same thing "We use it, we like it, it's nifty".

I was looking at why it was so nifty, but haven't heard much, other than users saying I should just get it and pay the money.

I ask these questions because I'm curious, not because I'm bashing SV. I'd ask the same questions about any purchases that would cost us $1000's of dollars. Is that so wrong?

I spent the majority of my adult life in manufacturing and specifically studying process flow, and specifically, the Toyota Production System. Within that, you are told to always ask why, which is what I'm doing here. In many cases, things people think are money savers can often cost them money. I'm not suggesting that's the case here at all, but I'm trying to understand where all this "cost savings" comes into play.

But to suggest that it's a bargain because it'll save you $100,000 is a bit of stretch on a sales tactic.
 
DSC

DSC

New Member
CES020 said:
I spent the majority of my adult life in manufacturing and specifically studying process flow, and specifically, the Toyota Production System. Within that, you are told to always ask why, which is what I'm doing here. .
Click to expand...

Not trying to start an argument, but you can not compare .. you experience on an assembly line type manufacturing engine (I'm assuming) vs. an every single thing is very different is a stretch for comparison's sake alone..

One good thing about Sign Vox that I can relate to you with your experience is this..

It helps to set the protocol measures in a solid way for each individual custom project that goes through fabrication in the shop. The parameters for the job are set up at step one, when the job is inputed, and can be accessed from each dept. as it goes through the fabrication process.

The job is set up from the start by the the in house PM, and then every dept mgr, has the access to those specifications set from the start.. The in house PM could essentially set the "rules" for the job and move on to the next job and not have to look at it again until QC, before it leaves..


Not only does it do that, but it can also be updated, from anywhere, anytime.. So if something changes the in house PM can change it from his desk, the road, or a late night phone call change for production if there is a 3rd shift or an early morning crew.. and everyone gets updated.

It seriously helps/gets rid of babysitting jobs and people if you use it right for in house production.

In our case anyway.. that is one great thing about it that "other" systems do not do . You should really take a webinar with Kevin and then come back with some better substantiated questions - I do not mean that in a "fresh" way, I am being absolutely serious, who knows, maybe you'll come to the dark side. ?
 
CES020

CES020

New Member
Thanks for that DSC. I'm not on the "light" or "dark" side. I'm objectively asking questions. If it's seen as being on one side or the other, then the perception of what I'm asking is being completely missed.

I didn't work on large run production places, we were a job shop that applied the Toyota system to our job shop. I personally engineered and implemented the entire shop floor control system for handling jobs, moving from operation to operation, load, capacity, and dealing with engineering change orders. So I get the process. That's exactly WHY I am asking questions, I'm trying to understand it better, not trying to trash it and suggest I can do better.

I appreciate your feedback on that last post. That's the stuff I'm asking about. I thought it was fairly simple and I expected different answers, much more like your last one, rather than "What's your problem with SV?". I don't have a problem with SV. How can I have a problem with something I haven't used?

I expected answers like :

1) It's got an awesome module that helps you figure your overhead. That process helps you set your pricing structure a lot more accurately. For us, we always charged "X" per hour because that was the going rate, however, once setting it all up, we realized we were undercharging for our work, and our rate should have been "X+$10". So our quotes instantly became more accurate as far costing jobs out so we're profitable.

2) It's got an awesome scheduling engine. You can take a job from quote to production with the click of a mouse, no extra keying anything. Just check one box, it moves it to production, you assign the job to a person, and it instantly shows on that persons schedule as a task that needs to be done, along with all details of the job.

3) It integrates with Quickbooks and once the job is marking complete, you can pull that data into Quickbooks and complete the job.

Those are the things I'd expect to hear and you've added some things for you side, so I appreciate that.

Kevin has also offered to show us how it works in detail. I appreciate that. I'll probably take him up on it soon.

My concerns are that we're too small for it. Like I mentioned, we don't do wraps and it's only so many people doing work and quoting, so I have concern if it's just too much product for us in our current situation.

For example, I've been working on the same job for 3 days and I've got 5 more days on this job. All the neat scheduling in the world doesn't do me much good when I'm doing 1 job in a week, even though it's a big job.
 
Kevin-shopVOX

Kevin-shopVOX

New Member
CES020 said:
I'm not trying to belittle SV. I have said repeatedly that it probably does what it does well.

What I think is insane is trying to convince people with sales tactics that it'll save you $100,000's of dollars by just installing and using it. Can it? Sure, in the right condition, but does a 2 man shop plan to get those results? I seriously doubt it.

I'm not belly aching over SV. I couldn't care less about SV or it's success or failure. I just have asked what makes it so great and all I get is the same thing "We use it, we like it, it's nifty".

I was looking at why it was so nifty, but haven't heard much, other than users saying I should just get it and pay the money.

I ask these questions because I'm curious, not because I'm bashing SV. I'd ask the same questions about any purchases that would cost us $1000's of dollars. Is that so wrong?

I spent the majority of my adult life in manufacturing and specifically studying process flow, and specifically, the Toyota Production System. Within that, you are told to always ask why, which is what I'm doing here. In many cases, things people think are money savers can often cost them money. I'm not suggesting that's the case here at all, but I'm trying to understand where all this "cost savings" comes into play.

But to suggest that it's a bargain because it'll save you $100,000 is a bit of stretch on a sales tactic.
Click to expand...

Ok. But to be honest you won't get the answers you are looking for other than experiencing it yourself. You need to form your own opinion. Take a webinar, try it out whatever, but form your own opinion, because the feedback you were given isn't satisfying you.

What exactly would you want it to do, that would answer your questions? Give me some specifics that you are actually looking for. Until I know your pain, I can't give you solutions.

MIS applications are all about centralized processes, collaboration and customer retention. You wouldn't be looking for one if you didn't want to improve these areas right? So adding signVOX improves that flow. Additionally we offer electronic job boards and online proofing, file management, social media integration, customer surveys and more. Additionally its tailored to the sign business. All in one application that is accessible from anywhere on any web enabled device. There are very few applications that allow you to do this. Are there other ways..we all know there are. For others, signVOX is their preferred way. And for those I am grateful to be able to grow forward with them.

As for my "sales tactic". Really? I'm not trying to pull the wool over anyone's eyes here. The last thing I want to be is a sleazy sales guy. I'm sure I used some real math. In fact I did say that the $120k over 5 years was actually funny money when it comes to cold hard cash. However, I'm a firm believer that time is money. It is the one thing we can't get back and once its gone its gone.

I was using time from actual feedback of people using this application; I did not pull it from my bag of sales tricks. Every shop has a fixed hourly rate. Whatever it costs them to turn their lights on. I used $50/hr as an average. Yours could only be $20. I don't know and for many its more. So are you telling me that if you save time it was of no value? And that the time saved can not be equated to a dollar amount? Especially when that time is used to get more work out or get more work in? Even if you took my "sales tactic" out of the equation I still showed at least 3x ROI just by using that saved time, of no value, to make more money. 2-man, 1-man 100 man shop. If you saved time you saved money. Yes it'll vary based on actual overhead but you saved money nonetheless. My example is far from a stretch when approached from the point of view of the only thing that actually matters about business investments. Did I get positive ROI on my investment?
 
DSC

DSC

New Member
CES020 said:
Thanks for that DSC. I'm not on the "light" or "dark" side. I'm objectively asking questions. If it's seen as being on one side or the other, then the perception of what I'm asking is being completely missed.

I didn't work on large run production places, we were a job shop that applied the Toyota system to our job shop. I personally engineered and implemented the entire shop floor control system for handling jobs, moving from operation to operation, load, capacity, and dealing with engineering change orders. So I get the process. That's exactly WHY I am asking questions, I'm trying to understand it better, not trying to trash it and suggest I can do better.

I appreciate your feedback on that last post. That's the stuff I'm asking about. I thought it was fairly simple and I expected different answers, much more like your last one, rather than "What's your problem with SV?". I don't have a problem with SV. How can I have a problem with something I haven't used?

I expected answers like :

1) It's got an awesome module that helps you figure your overhead. That process helps you set your pricing structure a lot more accurately. For us, we always charged "X" per hour because that was the going rate, however, once setting it all up, we realized we were undercharging for our work, and our rate should have been "X+$10". So our quotes instantly became more accurate as far costing jobs out so we're profitable.

2) It's got an awesome scheduling engine. You can take a job from quote to production with the click of a mouse, no extra keying anything. Just check one box, it moves it to production, you assign the job to a person, and it instantly shows on that persons schedule as a task that needs to be done, along with all details of the job.

3) It integrates with Quickbooks and once the job is marking complete, you can pull that data into Quickbooks and complete the job.

Those are the things I'd expect to hear and you've added some things for you side, so I appreciate that.

Kevin has also offered to show us how it works in detail. I appreciate that. I'll probably take him up on it soon.

My concerns are that we're too small for it. Like I mentioned, we don't do wraps and it's only so many people doing work and quoting, so I have concern if it's just too much product for us in our current situation.

For example, I've been working on the same job for 3 days and I've got 5 more days on this job. All the neat scheduling in the world doesn't do me much good when I'm doing 1 job in a week, even though it's a big job.
Click to expand...

Cool, I was just trying to keep the conversation light with the dark side comment, there was no concrete meaning behind it.. I look forward to hearing from you after you have taken Kevin up on his offer.. Maybe I can learn a few new things when we speak as well. I am always up for better proficiency in house..
be well.

Great conversation.. :cool1:
 
CES020

CES020

New Member
Kevin, my point about your numbers wasn't that they weren't real, but more to the point of that if one bought everything being sold on ROI, then we'd all probably be out of business.

The ROI on a new printer versus the one someone bought 18 months ago is there. The ROI on a Rogue Roller is there. The ROI for a Kyocera document printer is there. The ROI for a car that gets 50 MPG is there.

But, you have to spend money to get that savings.

I've never once suggested your product doesn't do have a good ROI or that it is anything less than a stellar product for the sign business.

But, let me ask you one thing, let's take a real life example in the other direction. One man shop, very slow with work right now. SV user. Doesn't make enough money to cover the bills. How was that ROI for him?

My point again, is that it's all relative to your existing situation. Good, bad, or indifferent.
 
Kevin-shopVOX

Kevin-shopVOX

New Member
CES020 said:
Kevin, my point about your numbers wasn't that they weren't real, but more to the point of that if one bought everything being sold on ROI, then we'd all probably be out of business.

The ROI on a new printer versus the one someone bought 18 months ago is there. The ROI on a Rogue Roller is there. The ROI for a Kyocera document printer is there. The ROI for a car that gets 50 MPG is there.

But, you have to spend money to get that savings.

I've never once suggested your product doesn't do have a good ROI or that it is anything less than a stellar product for the sign business.

But, let me ask you one thing, let's take a real life example in the other direction. One man shop, very slow with work right now. SV user. Doesn't make enough money to cover the bills. How was that ROI for him?

My point again, is that it's all relative to your existing situation. Good, bad, or indifferent.
Click to expand...

Absolutely you have to spend something to get savings. No brainer. The same with signVOX. I'm not suggesting you buy everything because they are able to generate ROI. That case you make is not a real world scenario and can't even be taken serioulsy. People don't just do that. In business they buy things they can typically afford that will help them move forward. I was presenting a case for using it over 5 years as was suggested by the cost of it over 5 years. You should just have ROI on the things you buy. That is what I was suggesting.

In your case of the other scenario, either they couldn't afford it in the first place, a product sitting still will never generate ROI - fact of life, sometimes you still buy things you value whether or not you are using it and from time to time we actually help those folk out cuz that is how we roll.
 
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