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first time vinyl wet application problem

Discussion in 'Newbie Forum' started by salvauser, Mar 22, 2007.

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  1. salvauser

    salvauser Member

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    I am new to vinyls and signs. I've been following the steps from a vinyl video tutorial I purchased on Ebay. I tried doing a wet application using the home made formula featured here in the signs101 forum. When I tried to remove the application tape off the vinyl, the vinyl would not stick to the surface at all. It almost felt like the entire adhesive washed off. I made sure I squeezed all the liquid from beneath the vinyl and still it would not stick. I even tried blowing it with a hair dryer and only turned the vinyl very soft.

    Can this procedure only be used when doing a vinyl on vinyl application (like shadows or 2 color stickers)?


    The vinyl I purchased does not have any brand on the back of it, but it feels thicker and previous purchases I've made.

    Thanks all for the help. This is a great web site.
     
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  2. Sticker Dude

    Sticker Dude Member

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    you got cheap vinyl off ebay for starters
    but when I do wet apps. I squeegie ALL the fluid out and then Wait 20-30 min for it to dry peel a lil spot to see if it stuck then wet the whole tape to make it soft then you can peel it off
    I always use Rapid Tac its worth it if you use soap and water you might be putting in to much soap
     
  3. iSign

    iSign Major Contributor

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    I didn't know there was any "officially" sanctioned "home made formula" featured here in the signs101 forum.

    sounds like a combination of too much soap in the formula, and/or too much fluid to begin with (regardless of soap content, or ratio) ...and possibly poor quality vinyl, combined with expecting quicker results that can be expected if over-wetting the vinyl.

    solution: use rapid tac & quality vinyl, or use a more carefully mixed homebrew, or spritz it on much more conservatively. After squeegeeing it, carefully see if you are able to remove the application tape yet. If not try again in an hour or two.

    vinyl on vinyl should be fine if the first layer has already been applied. It is not such a good idea if the first layer has not been applied, because if the backing paper gets wet, it could be a problem.
     
  4. Ken

    Ken Major Contributor

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    No, you should be able to wet-apply to most(smooth, preferably glossy) surfaces.
    Do yourself a favour and get some Rapidtac. The preparation of the surface is paramount. Any oily, dusty surface, silicone ( as in latex paint) will be impossible to apply vinyl to. Room temperature is ideal.
    I was applying some labels(dry) at a local retail shop a while back and couldn't get them to stick on glass jars. Ended up there was a very, very fine layer of drywall dust on the jars that I didn't see. I cleaned with Rapid prep and then had no prob.
    No this is not an advert for Roger. Just my .02
    Cheers...Ken
     
  5. signage

    signage Major Contributor

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    Some vinyls have water based adhesives, and if the vinyl you got has a water based adhesive, it will not work with a wet application.
     
  6. Ken

    Ken Major Contributor

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    Wow!..I didn't know that...
    Which vinyls are based that way?
    TIA...Ken
     
  7. PMG

    PMG Very Active Member

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    after i squeegee the fluid out,I also spray the app tape,this helps lift the tape off the vinyl and substrate!!!!
     
  8. Roger Bailey

    Roger Bailey Member

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    If I may, I will shed some bright light;

    Your application had poor quick bonding because there is nothing in a soap and water solution that stimulates adhesive to bond quick.And yes ad the fact that you may have bought some poor quality film.

    Also, how and what you pre clean substrate with is paramount, you must clean with a product that was designed for vinyl applications, Rapid Tac and TacII were so designed 20 years ago.

    The amount of application fluid used ( speaking Rapid Tac or TacII here ) is only critical in regard to using TOO LITTLE, yes, if the entire adhesive bond area is not wet enough it will trap air in the dry areas resulting in bubbles.
    We don't want you to waste it but, you must get it wet evenly, also the Rapid Tac or TacII stimulate the adhesive to bond faster and stronger, so there can not be TOO MUCH .

    The poor bonding people experience is from using wrong cleaning products and procedures clean only with the Rapid Tac or TacII and a "cheap paper towel" this is critical to a 90 second bond, allowing trans tape removal in 90 seconds !

    And by the way, those films that have "water base adhesive systems" are why we created Rapid TacII !

    Watch my free videos to confirm these facts !
    www.rapidtac.com

    Good luck
    Roger:thumb:
     
  9. Techman

    Techman Major Contributor

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    And now every one knows why I diss using home brews so much. They do not work.
    Waste of time , waste of good life force.
     
  10. skyhigh

    skyhigh Major Contributor

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    "Good Life Force" ?
    Too much Trek there Techman.....lol
     
  11. Ogriv

    Ogriv Member

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    I thought Weasel **** was the best? lol ! Hey I have some Doe urine left over from this years hunting season, mabey I could sell it on Ebay as "Application Fluid". Watch out Rapid Tac, here comes "Doe **** Mist" now available in 1 oz bottles. We don't recommend this product for human consumption.


    Honestly, Don't waste your money trying to re-invent the wheel. Simply use Rapid Tac 1 or 2, apply your graphics, then use the much cheaper water to spray the App Tape. Wait a few minutes and the tape will pull off with no effort.

    Although some people insist on using Rapid prep, I can't say I like it. I have a sample bottle that I tried using on a large glass install, and it appeared to leave a thin residue behind. I'll stick to my denatured alcohol for cleaning my glass to a squeeky clean surface.
     
  12. imaSIGNr

    imaSIGNr Very Active Member

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    I usually use Rapid Tac or other similar brands these days, but in the past I have used home brews with good success. I do not recommend them however. But in a pinch if it's absolutely necessary I think they will work.
    You may have gotten too much soap as said here.
    My formula just to compare with what you used is ....1 qt.water: 1 tsp.isopropal alc.: 2 drops of liquid dish soap.
    I don't use this anymore, but didn't have a problem when I did. I was always worried what might happen down the road though......
     
  13. jbennett

    jbennett Member

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    Doe pi$$ takes approximately twice as much active ingredient as does Weasel Pi$$; however, doe pi$$ is more readily available (weasel pi$$ is better). I am hoping that Wal-mMart will come out with an Equate brand of Weasel pi$$ before too long.

    OK, now for some seriousness. I LOVE Rapidtac 1. It works well, smells good too. Roger, When is Rapidtac 2 more suitable than Rapidtac1? It stinks and doesn't work as well for me (probably just because I don't know when it is best to use it). Flooding the tape and re-squeegeeing has worked great for me. I have had better luck with the Transferrite tape releasing easier than anything I have tried. The homemade stuff isn't good for layering at home. It can break down the backing paper and cause it to crumble under the vinyl. Rapidtac is much easier on the backing paper. I lay together two foot tall 4 color race numbers with it all the time. My 2 cents.

    jbennett
     
  14. dclet

    dclet Active Member

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    1 qt water, 2 drops of IVORY DISH SOAP. and DENATURED Alcohol added to suit conditions.....more in the winter, less in the summer etc etc etc........

    I never had a job comeback because of adhesion problems....
     
  15. jbennett

    jbennett Member

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    Nevermind, Roger, I found your answer in on RapidTac1 vs. 2 in another active thread.

    jbennett
     
  16. mark in tx

    mark in tx Very Active Member

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    Weasel **** recipe for all around vinyl use.

    1-take one spray bottle
    2-fill half way with 91% rubbing alcohol
    3-add 2 drops of Dawn dish soap
    4-top off bottle with tap water
    5-replace trigger head
    6-shake once
    7-Ignore the Weasel ****™ vs. Rapid-Tac™ flame war that erupts bi-weekly on signs101.
     
  17. thewood

    thewood Very Active Member

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    8-Practice and learn to apply vinyl dry. You can do it!
     
  18. ChicagoGraphics

    ChicagoGraphics Major Contributor

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    Save all the hassles.....Apply it dry, use the center hinge method (Job Done)
    ......NEXT.....
     
  19. Replicator

    Replicator Major Contributor

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    Go Dry ! ! !
     
  20. salvauser

    salvauser Member

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    Thanks to all. I've never expected this very impressive amount of responses. I'll follow all of your advice.

    Thanks again.
     
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