Fixing sign panels to marble?

[PrintItBig]

Hi,

We've had an inquiry in which involves covering up some existing signs which have been engraved in marble with some new signs.

One sign is internal and one is external, both are approximately 2400mm x 600mm.

One idea that's been suggested is to produce the new signs on brushed finish aluminum composite panels with either the company logo applied to the panels or fret cut into them with the panels backed in acrylic so this can be seen through the fret cut letters.

Question... What are the options for fixing the new signs to the existing marble? Considering one is internal and the other is almost at a 45 degree angle rather than being vertical, would we get away with using a whole load of VHB tape? Or are we better of drilling into the marble? If drilling, are we at risk of cracking the marble? Any tips?

Pictures attached.

Thanks.

 

[skyhigh]

a "whole load" of VHB shouldn't be necessary. That is the way I would go. The marble looks to be glassy smooth, so you should have fantastic adhesion. (I wouldn't skimp, but I don't know what you call a "load")

Anything metal or acrylic, attached to the smooth marble would be my preferred method of install.

 

[Moze]

Hi,

We've had an inquiry in which involves covering up some existing signs which have been engraved in marble with some new signs.

One sign is internal and one is external, both are approximately 2400mm x 600mm.

One idea that's been suggested is to produce the new signs on brushed finish aluminum composite panels with either the company logo applied to the panels or fret cut into them with the panels backed in acrylic so this can be seen through the fret cut letters.

Question... What are the options for fixing the new signs to the existing marble? Considering one is internal and the other is almost at a 45 degree angle rather than being vertical, would we get away with using a whole load of VHB tape? Or are we better of drilling into the marble? If drilling, are we at risk of cracking the marble? Any tips?

Pictures attached.

Thanks.

View attachment 91436 View attachment 91437

Yes, marble can crack when being drilled with a masonry bit. If you decide to stud-mount the new sign, use a diamond core bit. You can use VHB tape but first you need to decide on what material the sign will be and then pick the VHB tape best suited for that material and the marble. Call 3M if in doubt - they're very helpful. If using VHB I would also use silicone.

Personal opinion since the install surfaces are marble: I would upsell then on a nicer material that would better compliment the marble, like Corian, stainless steel,. 250'' brushed aluminum, frosted acrylic with stand-offs, etc. I think ACM would look kind of cheap.

 

[Marlene]

you can alos build in he cost to sub out to a mason to do the drilling. we won't touch granite or marble as it just isn't worth the risk. the interior wall you might be able to cover that with a light weight material and VHV tape. do call 3M or your supplier to make sure you are buying the correct tape to stick to marble

 

[MikePro]

VHB tape & silicone.
don't waste your time & $$$ drilling it, not to mention potentially cracking the marble.

 

[PrintItBig]

Thanks guys, all very helpful.

Forgive my ignorance, but is there a particular type of silicone to use or is all silicone just silicone? Also, is it best to use a border of silicone around the edge to stop moisture getting in and then VHB in the centre or is there no particular method?

I hear what you're saying about the alluminium composite looking cheap and I did consider using stainless steel or acrylic, but won't this make the sign too heavy to use VHB / silicone?

If we do have to drill into the marble I think we will get a Mason to do that bit so thanks for that. If drilling, what would be the best fixing method? Are we talking rawl plugs, screws and stand off fixings? Or rods into adhesive filled holes?

Thanks.

 

[MikePro]

nah, just 100% silicone adhesive/caulk will do the trick.
and you're overthinking it, no need to "seal the perimeter" or anything fancy.

vhb tape tabs where you can fit em, and a bead of silicone through the center of the letter, not over-doing it as to have silicone spooging-out from behind the letter.

 

[PrintItBig]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

These are going to be full panels (2400mm x 600mm) rather than cut letters and possibly made of steel, so I assume it's going to be pretty heavy? Just concerned that VHB / silicone won't be enough?

 

[skyhigh]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

These are going to be full panels (2400mm x 600mm) rather than cut letters and possibly made of steel, so I assume it's going to be pretty heavy? Just concerned that VHB / silicone won't be enough?

THATS when you use a "whole load" of VHB. :Big Laugh

How about using your brushed metal panel, along with some cut out acrylic letters on top. Too many scenarios of possible material choices. One thing I will say.....if its too heavy for VHB and silicone, then I wouldn't be hanging it on the marble (studs or not)

NO on the silicone around the edges....use vhb. Think car molding....the vhb doesn't need sealed from the weather.

 

[Moze]

Thanks guys, all very helpful.

Forgive my ignorance, but is there a particular type of silicone to use or is all silicone just silicone? Also, is it best to use a border of silicone around the edge to stop moisture getting in and then VHB in the centre or is there no particular method?

I hear what you're saying about the alluminium composite looking cheap and I did consider using stainless steel or acrylic, but won't this make the sign too heavy to use VHB / silicone?

If we do have to drill into the marble I think we will get a Mason to do that bit so thanks for that. If drilling, what would be the best fixing method? Are we talking rawl plugs, screws and stand off fixings? Or rods into adhesive filled holes?

Thanks.

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

These are going to be full panels (2400mm x 600mm) rather than cut letters and possibly made of steel, so I assume it's going to be pretty heavy? Just concerned that VHB / silicone won't be enough?

It looks like you're changing materials now....

If I'm the least bit unsure of whether or not silicone and VHB is going to be enough on a given project, I use mechanical fasteners. But that's based on experience, and it sounds like this may be a new animal for you. Without knowing exactly what material you're using, it's hard to make that call for you. If you're attaching a steel panel, yes, you should use mechanical fasteners. Studs (along with VHB and silicone) will be fine IF the steel is a thin enough gauge. If it's HEAVY, you need to use a mechanical fastener that will go through holes drilled in the steel and into studs or other substantial material behind the marble. At that point, I would assume you should just sub the entire install out.

Marble will not crack if you use a diamond core bit and you drill straight (do not angle the bit). At most you would be using a 3/16" or 1/4" bit. There's no real need to sub that particular part out. A couple of $15 bits and a few other miscellaneous items and you're good to go.

Knowing exactly what material you're using would help narrow down the advice.

 

[PrintItBig]

Originally they just wanted a foam PVC panel with a printed marble effect. I said I thought this would look really cheap and suggested the aluminium composite as a slightly nicer option.

This is one part of a much larger job and to be honest, I think they'll go with whatever we recommend so I'm just trying to find the highest quality looking option for them without it being a nightmare (for us) to fit.

So the general consensus is ACM panels with acrylic letters or similar would be OK to be just stuck over the top? And steel or anything more substantial would need some serious fixings? That sound about right?

 

[Moze]

VHB and silicone are extremely strong. You could go a little nicer than the ACM. For the interior sign, a .250'' black frosted acrylic panel with .250'' acrylic or aluminum letters would look really nice.

For the exterior sign, you're golden... Due to the angle you can pretty much use any material and it will stay put.

 

[PrintItBig]

OK I have another one for you...

We also need to replace 2 panels which are part of an illuminated sign. Size = 675mm x 168mm per panel.

Images attached (please try and ignore the angry looking person in the reflection).

Ideally they want to replace both the metal fascia and switch out the red acrylic for orange.

The metal fascia just looks like it's stuck on to the acrylic with some kind of adhesive and would hopefully come off quite easily (It's coming away already on 1 side). The acrylic however looks like its bonded to the marble with some kind of cement around it's perimeter. Also, it's unclear whether its also attached to something inside or beyond the recess.

My main concern really, is saying we can do this, getting the new panels made and removing the metal fascia only to find out we can't get the old acrylic out, or finding out that the old acrylic actually extends into the marble and we've cut the new acrylic the wrong size etc.

Any advice is welcome.

Will the cement around the acrylic be easy to get off?

Are we best just saying we can replace the metal portion but not the acrylic?

Thanks.

 

[Moze]

Hard to tell what's going on by those pictures. Take those caps off and try to see how it's built.

 

[MikePro]

OK I have another one for you...

soooo, basically you're replacing the whole panel? is it secured pretty good? if so, then slap a new panel right over the top of it! why bother drilling new holes into the marble, or try to salvage the existing ones, when you can easily drill into/bond to a nice metal panel that's already secured to it?

 

[PrintItBig]

The small discs on the front of the panel are just decorative and stuck to the front.

As far as I can see it is constructed as I describe above ie the metal fascia is just stuck to the the acrylic with adhesive and the acrylic is bonded to the marble with some kind of greyish cement around the edge of the recess although it's not clear whether it's also attached inside somehow as well.

The client isn't too keen on us removing the old sign until we have the new sign there to fit as they don't want to be left with a big hole in their marble sign. Problem is we don't know how to construct the new sign until we take the old one apart, so not sure what to do here.

We can't just stick a panel over the top as the panel is illuminated from the rear so it gives off a red glow through the lettering. They want to keep this effect but change the logo and the colour.

Does anyone know what that greyish cement is likely to be and whether it would be easy / possible to remove?

Thanks.

 

[Billct2]

How is the sign serviced?

 

[PrintItBig]

Do you mean how is the electricity supplied? If so, I'm not sure. Is that information that I need to know?

 

[Moze]

He's asking how you access the electrical. If it's illuminated there should be a way to service/access the electrical.

 

[Billct2]

Yes, either the face is somehow removable or there is a panel on the back of the sign to get to the lighting.
This may give you a clue how to replace the face.