Forced into low ink densities on the L360

[AF]

I would still want a full control option, otherwise my output will match the home user who puts one of these machines in his garage and has no clue what he is doing.

You describe the only way to increase ink (gamut for all intents and purposes) is to increase pass count. While that is basically true for custom control, the ink lay down is simply too low for all materials at a given pass count. I hope HP corrects this in a firmware update. Otherwise the 200 series will be the preferred models for those of us who use "alternate" materials and demand exceptional color.

 

[dypinc]

I can't find any way to set the dpi when doing the calibration and profile from the printer. You can set it to 150, 300, or 600 dpi when you do it from the RIP. When the RIP reads a quality setting created in the printer it always comes in at 300. I have not tried 18-pass or 1 or 2 pass so I don't know what dpi you get at those passes.

Seem kind of strange they advertise these to print at 150, 300, or 600 dpi but don't allow you to set it in the printer menu.

 

[FrankW]

I can't find any way to set the dpi when doing the calibration and profile from the printer. You can set it to 150, 300, or 600 dpi when you do it from the RIP. When the RIP reads a quality setting created in the printer it always comes in at 300. I have not tried 18-pass or 1 or 2 pass so I don't know what dpi you get at those passes..

The resolution of 150, 300 and 600dpi have nothing to do with printing resolution. With these values you set the rendering resolution of the contone-bitmap-file generated in the RIP-Software. The printing resolution depends on the print mode chosen (lnumber of passes). With the new firmware available now and new versions of software drivers 600dpi will be the new default with print modes from 8 Passes.

 

[AF]

dypinc, I think your worst fears have been realized:

http://www.signs101.com/forums/showthread.php?115936-Hp-l360&p=1181812#post1181812

 

[dypinc]

This L360 is going to be a challenge. I am now rethink getting rid of the L25500. After what I am finding with ridge materials I am think about trying to repair the L25500.

Tried to print on 14mil Blox-lite which was not a problem on the L25500.

Big problem on the L360. With maximum vacuum and minimum heat there is still too much buckling in the print zone. It appears to me that HP did not think this out very much and put the heating zone too close to the print zone for any ridge material that might buckle a little when heated. I was running Blox-lite at 16 pass. Only thing I know to try is run it with less passes to not have under the heat zone as long.

 

[dypinc]

New twist to the OP. Vacuum set at 100 for backlit setting is not the same a vacuum set at 100 for regular setting at least the paper settings. This apparently is not documented anywhere as first level HP tech knows nothing about it.

Ran Blox-lite at regular paper setting at 100 vacuum and it seems to work but or course I can't set ink density higher that 120%.

 

[Scyan]

The buckling issue you are seeing in the print zone has nothing to do with heat. It's a result of putting down a lot of "liquid" on an uncoated paper surface. You are putting down optimizer, lots of ink and leaving it there a very long time going in a 16 passes. You will get the same results with no heat whatsoever. You will also get the same results on Fine art papers, uncoated papers, etc etc...

The trick is to balance speed and density. The only way I could get a good print out of a fine art paper was to run it at 8 passes with a higher density and high heat settings. That worked fine with 80% vacuum on the platten.

One other thing you can do to achieve great saturation on prints if you find that the 100-120% settings aren't "bright" enough on the SAV and Paper presets would be to do the ink limiting and the linearisation on the printer and use another software to create the profile.

You do the first part but skip the profile at the end. Then, from the rip you (onyx example) delete the generic profile the machine assigned to your media preset and turn all ICC profiles to off and output the color charts to create the profile. Then you can build more saturation in the profile for using it in the perceptual rendering intent or you use Relative colorimetric with black point compensation.

To me, that has resulted in the best of both worlds. Using an icc profile compare tool, I find that the profiles done using that setup have a MUCH bigger gamut and much denser colors than using the L360's built in CMM to generate the profile. The shadows are much much better as well. The profile has a very flat gamut all the way to the black point instead of a pointy end in the shadows... much much better.

I have gone through our whole media lineup here and honestly, there really isn't much that I haven't been able to get great results out of. I really did not like the last generation, but that one is realllly something imho.

 

[dypinc]

Thanks for your insight, but like I mentioned in my previous post the buckling issue actually can from the fact that you can't achieve as much vacuum when in backlit paper mode as regular paper mode.

You're right better results can be gotten by profiling with the RIP. I even do the linearization with the RIP but like I stated in the OP there is no need to do ink limiting on the RIP when it is forced on you in the printer. So on the RIP after linearization, I set ink limit at 400%. No point even messing with ink limiting on the RIP unless for some strange reason you would want to limit it even more than the printer does.

I am getting really good results this way and yes I have been in contact with HP about raising the ink densities and a few other things like being able to adjust temp and vacuum (like is available when printing a job) when print the ink limit diagnostic plot, along with another suggestion or two.

 

[dypinc]

Back to profiling.

I am finding (at least when it comes to Caldera) that if you create a new profile with the larger setting selected you can not save that profile to the L360.

The L360 creates profiles sized at 360KB

Caldera creates 612 patch profiles with the largest setting at around 10MB, Medium setting at around 3MB. The 3MB one will copy to the L360 but the 10MB will not.

 

[AF]

If that is the case, I would call HP and find a way to just profile in the rip and disable all that crazy onboard stuff.

 

[Davo]

I found using the HP Perforated SAV preset it can put down upto 260% ink, but at the cost of more passes... the minimum is 12 pass, which personally I find to be a good balance between good curing and speed. But is there a way to create an ICC profile on this media? The option is greyed out on the printer.

Updating to the newest 9th Sep firmware as I type, does anyone know if they have let us have more control in this latest update?

 

[dypinc]

I found using the HP Perforated SAV preset it can put down upto 260% ink, but at the cost of more passes... the minimum is 12 pass, which personally I find to be a good balance between good curing and speed. But is there a way to create an ICC profile on this media? The option is greyed out on the printer.

Updating to the newest 9th Sep firmware as I type, does anyone know if they have let us have more control in this latest update?

Version NEXUS_00_03_09.1 does not allow any more control of the ink densities. Didn't run the previous version so don't know if there was more restriction than not.

Beware of the backlit setting which must be what the HP Perforated SAV preset is using, that allows more ink density because the vacuum is not as strong as the same setting in regular, at least it isn't in the paper settings.

 

[FrankW]

Davo:

Do you own a Latex 360? Only with a 360 ICC-Profiling in the machine is possible. With a 310 or 330, ink limit and linearisation only can be done (an ICC-Profile must be chosen from one downloaded or generic).

If you have a 360 and having no access to the ICC-Profiling, I would clone the profile you want to profile and try to profile that clone profile.

 

[dypinc]

Davo:

Do you own a Latex 360? Only with a 360 ICC-Profiling in the machine is possible. With a 310 or 330, ink limit and linearisation only can be done (an ICC-Profile must be chosen from one downloaded or generic).

If you have a 360 and having no access to the ICC-Profiling, I would clone the profile you want to profile and try to profile that clone profile.

I am sorry I am missing your point because you don't seem to have a clue what you talking about with the L360. Take some time and read and research.

With the L360 you can calibrate and profile only some substrates on the printer. The rest need to be calibrated and profiled with a RIP but you can calibrate and profile all substrates with the right RIPs. What you can't really do is ink limiting with the RIP because that is essentially forced on you by the printer. Sure you can use backlit setting but that has its own problem which I have already posted, and you can and supposedly add ink limiting in the RIP on top of what the printer is already doing.

 

[AF]

Frank,
He is trying to control the ink limits and vacuum of the L360 but having no luck because the printer won't let him and/or over-rules what information the rip is sending when he creates custom profiles. The latest firmware push didn't offer any help. Loading as the "wrong" media type isn't working because if he gets the ink limits in range, the other settings such as vacuum and tension are wrong. He wants to be able to control the ink limits and vacuum based on the material he is loading and not based on the presets from some person in a lab at HP who only uses HP brand media.

 

[dypinc]

Just wanted to bump this back up and encourage anyone with the L3xx series or anyone thinking of purchasing one to call HP and complain about the ink densities settings.

If we all complain it will be much more likely that HP will correct this with a firmware update.

 

[Davo]

Davo:

Do you own a Latex 360? Only with a 360 ICC-Profiling in the machine is possible. With a 310 or 330, ink limit and linearisation only can be done (an ICC-Profile must be chosen from one downloaded or generic).

If you have a 360 and having no access to the ICC-Profiling, I would clone the profile you want to profile and try to profile that clone profile.

I don't own one, I work in a shop and operate a 360.

As has been said, tricking the printer into a different media type opens up different options and limits others, it's a stupid thing HP have done. HP have simply locked down some of the options for different media, you may get higher ink densities with higher passes but then ICC profiling or colour calibration is not even possible since it's greyed out on the machine itself due to the preset media mode selected. There should be an 'advanced user' mode where all the options are accessible and you can tweak to your hearts content, hopefully we'll see this with a firmware update. I must admit, I have not tried profiling through the RIP but it's been said we're still locked into what the printer will accept.

 

[AF]

My concern, as a user of a 260 who enjoys the full control of the machine through the rip, is that when the day comes to replace it I am hosed. This type of move on the part of HP is exactly what the competition needs to come in and take over a huge chunk of market share. If Mimaki or Roland pulled their heads out and suddenly offered a latex machine at a reasonable price that had all the capabilities like the older HP's, then it would be a no brainer choice for someone in the market. I hope you 300 series guys get that much needed firmware update. The machine sounds like a winner in all other aspects. We love our 260 and now loathe the day it will bite the dust.

 

[sandizg]

On my hp latex 330 I wanted to print backlit selfadhesive film (Oracal 210) and I couldn't find good enough saturation in generic profiles for self adhesive backlit even at 260 value. Then I used clone of HP Backlit Polyester Film 20p-185, optimizer : from default 6 to 22, drying:from 95 to 116C. Looks like total inkvalues are not the same for different materials - 185 at HP Backlit Polyester Film is way higher than 260 at Backlit Selfadhesive.

 

[dypinc]

Interesting find. Makes you wonder if this also applies to frontlit settings. Would 6 pass 80% ink density on polyester film have more ink density than 6 pass 80% ink density on PVC banner? Looks like more testing is in order.