Forum Design Ethics

[CES020]

I have a question regarding designs, and the ethics behind many of these posts.

Here's what frequently happens-

Member A : Here's my design, what do you think? (looking for suggestions to improve).

Member B : Try this....(puts up a design of their own showing other options).

Member A : That rocks!

So, where does this leave things, ethically? Did Member B just give Member A the right to use the design they suggested? A frequent comment from some people is "Member B nailed it, send him $500 an be happy".

Is that appropriate? It's not like Member A said "Can someone design me a logo for $500?". They just asked for suggestions on their own design. They never asked anyone to design something for them.

So where does that leave Member A? Can they use the suggestions from Member B? Or do they have to pay Member B for the use of their suggestion?

I've seen this happen many times over the last few years and I'm always left wondering what the protocol for that situation is.

I'd be interested in getting some professional input from all you professionals out there!

Thanks!

 

[Jillbeans]

I have seen this go both ways.
I often throw out a visual suggestion because sometimes it's simply easier for me than actually typing out all the wheres and why-fors.
The intention is that the asker learns how to better their own work and idea.
Sometimes they do, and that's a win-win.
Hell sometimes I even post a pdf so they can put it into their machine and mess around with it.

I have also seen someone post utter sh!t and ask for help, and some good soul puts up an idea, and they take it and never say thanks.
This happened to a friend of mine (not me trying to sound like it wasn't me)
The taker took the posted layout and claimed it as their own, promising my friend $50 which he never saw.

I am not the richest person in the world, and it would be nice to get some cash here and there if someone actually used my idea top to bottom, but I never intend that when I post up a suggestion.
I am merely trying to help.
I have become more "choosy" about whom I will help.
Cast not your pearls before swine and all that.
We all learn from suggestions we see.
There are many sage designers on this site from which we can all learn a thing or two.
I particularly love when Rick or Tiki post an idea.
I think, for me, a simple THANK YOU is often enough.
Unfortunately, in this world there are as many or more takers than givers.
Just my 2¢
Love.....Jill

 

[signcrafters london]

I agree with Jill. The rare times I think I can actually help someone, I do so without expecting anything in return. If there were someone I didn't want to help for whatever reason, I wouldn't.

I think it's OK to accept advice and suggestions from others, as long as you do the work yourself. I wouldn't use anyone's design, or even design element, without at least asking them what they wanted for it/offering them something.

 

[Rick]

My policy is this....

If I post a design, and you like it, you might be able to use it... under these conditions...

--Ask me.
--If you are not a premium subscriber, I may ask you to become one, and give you the design for your use.
--Ask me.
--If you are already a premium subscriber... ask me. I may say it's yours for supporting the board.
--Ask me.
--I always keep rights of promotion (I get to say I designed it) otherwise you can use the logo for your use.... just ask.

kinda like the logo I designed for you... if you like it... ask..

 

[Wes Phifer]

Just my 2¢
Love.....Jill

Jill are you saying we owe you 2¢ for this input? LOL

 

[Sign-Man Signs]

I think if you take the time to design and post a design, you weren't asked to. If some low life steals that design that you post and you expect to be paid, I think you're just SOL. I real professional would at least say thanks or send you something. I think most of us post designs more for "look at what I can do factor" and never give a thought to being paid for non contracted design work.

 

[iSign]

I think most of us who contribute designs to design topics are enjoying making a contribution to the learning process. I also think someone using the results without permission would be as unlikely, as it is un-enforcable.

 

[Sign-Man Signs]

I think most of us who contribute designs to design topics are enjoying making a contribution to the learning process. I also think someone using the results without permission would be as unlikely, as it is un-enforcable.

Ditto

 

[Locals Find!]

I honestly believe if someone posts a design and your going to use it whether or not you requested it. You should pay for it. Just helping yourself is not ethical. They were nice enough to put their time and effort into it. So you should ask what they feel would be proper compensation.

If you take inspiration from the design. You may not owe monetary compensation however, you should thank the person for the contribution and not take credit for where the inspiration came from.

 

[CES020]

Thanks for the replies, and thanks Rick, if we get to that point, I'll certainly ask, as you did a great job on that!

If you should pay someone for it, as some suggest, doesn't that make those that contribute just people trolling for work? That's part of why I posted the wording the way I did. Member A wasn't looking to hire a designer, they were trying to improve their skills. Jill's posts, as well as Rick's have never ever come across as people looking to gain business, they have come across as people genuinely trying to help people. I don't think we have people trolling for business at all, but I see the "pay Member B $500 and move on" as advice all the time, when I don't think that is ever the intent of Member B when they put something up. It's as if Member C is trying to set the terms for a conversation happening between A and B.

We see so many ideas and suggestions on this forum, and it gets confusing when there's so many unwritten rules in the design world. That's why I posted this, to try and understand it better myself.

Seems like it's pretty simple, if you like something someone helps you with, you just need to ask if you can use it Then it's up to that person to say "I'd rather you didn't without paying me for it", or "Sure, knock yourself out".

I think I just made this all far more complicated than it needed to be!

Thanks for the input!

 

[omgsideburns]

I'm sorry, but if someone asks for advice and you go and create something and post it as a "suggestion"... and they use it.. It was a suggestion. Advice is free around here (except in the premium section, where you pay in advance) They don't have to pay for it. They should say "hey thanks, that's a good idea!" .. and if they don't they are just inconsiderate.. and I really don't think people contributing to those kinds of threads expect more than a thanks.

 

[CES020]

and I really don't think people contributing to those kinds of threads expect more than a thanks.

I don't think so either, it's member C that's causing all this confusion!

 

[John Butto]

changing tires

If your driving along and see someone with a flat tire and you stop to help because that person has no concept in changing tires. You do not expect any money because you are glad to help. But, if you own a tire store and your competition across the street does not know the first thing about tires you are certainly not going over to change tires for him for free and you hope he goes out of business for your sake. If his tire store is located in another part of the country you figure why not help him it does not affect me but it does affect the competion who has a place down the road from him and is losing monies because he is getting free help from you because you are basicly a nice person to stop and offer assistance on the internet highway.

 

[Rick]

When I help, it's because I'm bored with what I am doing, and I need some creative release. Like Jill, it's sometimes easier to show it than to explain it. As far as trolling for work, I have no problem with some people doing that, but it's not my forum. I do it for free or ask people to contribute because I believe it can a good forum that needs support. If someone pinched the work without asking, then they suck, and I could care less, I have a million more cooler logos I can design.. there is more where that came from.

In all the years I have showed a design, about 15% ever taken any of my suggestions or used the design. I am a broken record on how to design something.

With all the experience I have, I could make someone a lot of money or help them avoid costly mistakes... not in logo design, but in other aspects of the sign business, but that usually falls on deaf ears too. I am very proud that people not only liked my designs enough to use them, but help keep the forum going. But I'm a hell of a lot more than just a logo designer. Very few people on this forum would make a good client for me because I only take clients that want to build a relationship with, not single projects, so it's not really worth trolling for work on here. If someone was designing and building a complete hospital signage system, large apartment sign system, city wayfinding, a theme park, large airport sign system, hit me up, I will then become a merchant member.

There are basic "rules" to graphic design, one of them is "don't try to be original, just try to be good" Design is a process, all schooled designers and properly apprenticed designers use it. All my work is, is the practice of the process over and over again.

This isn't the first time it has been brought up, but I'm pretty sure most people contribute because they like to help, and it's good practice for them. If they make a buck doing it, then I think that's cool.

 

[SignManiac]

When I help, it's because I'm bored with what I am doing, and I need some creative release. Like Jill, it's sometimes easier to show it than to explain it.

Ditto!

I've never expected compensation. Although I was asked one time if I would sell a design and I said sure, why not. I figured an hours worth of time was fair enough. I would like to think most people here are honest, at least that what I want myself to believe. Design is something that is in my blood. It's actually a disease at times. It's the one thing I still derive pleasure from after nearly four decades in this business. I really don't like the sign business but I don't know what else I would do at this point. Well I suppose I could be a professional skydiving instructor but then that would become work too which takes all the fun out of jumping from perfectly flawed mechanical flying machines!

 

[omgsideburns]

...

You're getting in to an essential flaw of this website.. We are all in the same business talking about how to do business. The tire guy across the street wouldn't be too bright if he got on a website to tell others advice on changing tires would he? But if he did, you can damn sure bet he wouldn't be sending the guy on the other end of the line a bill.

Luckily this is a skilled trade, and all the advice in the world won't help if you can't apply it.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I've done a few to be helpful and to get the ideas flowing. Not because I'm trolling for work. A lot of designers don't need to troll for work on forums anyway. If getting work was the goal, posting all sorts of ideas, without some sort of agreement that the designer would get paid for their work, wouldn't be worth it anyway.

I do it because I can design a lot faster and easier then I can type and explain my thoughts. (Actually, I take that back, I can probably explain my thoughts quicker by typing, but the chances of those ideas being understood, are increased by visually demonstrating it.) Only once has someone asked to use the layout and actually offered to pay for the artwork. Most of the time people just say thanks. Which is fine if those people just like an idea and put their own spin to it. If they were to use it as is, I would hope they would do the right thing and ask the designer. Actually if they were to use anything from someone else's work I would hope the least they could do is ask.

To be honest, whenever I do take the time, it isn't close to the normal time I would spend if I were hired. I usually only participate in one of those threads by drawing up something when the ideas just hit me. When I'm hired, sometimes the ideas don't hit me and I don't always visualize the end result, I might spend a good portion of my time on that project conceptualizing, which I believe is where a lot of the value of that type of service is placed. That is not to say the execution of those ideas aren't valuable as well, that is really when the experience and skill of the designer is at work.

If you are someone who is wanting help with a design and posts it on this forum my advice is this: Do the right thing. If you benefited from someone else's time and expertise don't you think they should get something for their work, especially if you plan on using it? Most of us can tell when someone is just after free help. The funny thing is, trying to develop a brand by taking advantage of people on a forum, isn't the best way to go. If you aren't a designer, hire some who does this stuff for a living. The regular design process will yield much better results.

 

[SignManiac]

^^^^ another very good post

 

[Joe Diaz]

Well I suppose I could be a professional skydiving instructor but then that would become work too which takes all the fun out of jumping from perfectly flawed mechanical flying machines!

My dream job would be a roller-coaster critic. I would travel from amusement park to amusement park reviewing the rides and eating carnival food. It would be a short career (not sure if some horrible coaster accident or the carnival food would get me first), but it would be totally worth it. :Big Laugh

 

[Billct2]

What amazes me is how many times someone posts a layout suggestion and the OP keeps right on with their original sucky layout.
I have been guilty of saying "Just use Jill's(or Ricks or Joes etc)" design and be done with it.
What is really cool is that rare thread when you see a real back & forth design process take place and the design ends of great.
What sucks is that after the time & effort that is freely given, how often no one posts the final result.

 

[Gino]

Personally, I'm no designer by trade. I just have done alot over the last 40 years or so.

My approach here is to try and explain to someone verbally or through type written words what they can do to possibly make a design click better. Giving someone ideas and food for thought is allowing that person to expand their knowledge as a student while you are teaching without giving them complete ideas.

A good teacher can explain the same things many different ways without doing the actual work for the student. One will never work as hard at improving themselves if it's all given to them as to having to work through it on their own. Besides, there's a better sense of accomplishment when someone gets it on their own.

Let's take a piano teacher. He can explain music theory to you and let you come to various conclusions before coming to the the best answer. Having hit many pitfalls along the way is how one learns good from bad, whether its a good design or a good sounding cord. However, as one experiments, he/she is learning on their own and learning some very valuable lessons in the meantime.

There are many levels here on this forum from lazy, to full blown great designers and I post up very few ideas, because the lazy ones will remain lazy... and the great ones only need a nudge here or there. For those in-between, I tend to look at who is posting, which section we're in and if it's someone that really needs help and I can't explain it fast enough, I might post a picture showing some points of interest. There are those that have taken many ideas from this site and with no laws or rules in place, it's up to the individual poster how far they are willing to help, with sometimes, not even a thank you. I see it as just bad manners and once the vast majority learns who they can help or not..... they might want to look around at where they're at and to whom they are helping before just posting.

 

[Gino]

My dream job would be a roller-coaster critic. I would travel from amusement park to amusement park reviewing the rides and eating carnival food. It would be a short career (not sure if some horrible coaster accident or the carnival food would get me first), but it would be totally worth it. :Big Laugh

Diners, Drive-Ins & Dives..................

Now there is one lucky GUY with a great job............... no pun.
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