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Free color conversion tool from FireSprint.com

FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
OP or the users of the color conversion tool which should be updated to the current methods and technology. IMO, is all.

So the tool is built using what Pantone suggest are the closest CMYK, HEX & RGB values for their solid coated colors (https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/716-C) for example. Isn't that what we should all be using, since they define the color? I mean I get that different outputs will demand changes to these numbers, but isn't this where we should all start?

I am genuinely asking. You both clearly have a better grasp on color.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
Isn't that what we should all be using, since they define the color?
Well, they've defined the those colors using but using what color space(s)? Those are the necessary specifics they're not telling us except when using the modern Bridge values.

Somewhat as the different accents of the English language in different parts of the world. It's all English but could sound, or be spelled, or be defined rather differently.
 
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Christian @ 2CT Media

Active Member
So the tool is built using what Pantone suggest are the closest CMYK, HEX & RGB values for their solid coated colors (https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/716-C) for example. Isn't that what we should all be using, since they define the color? I mean I get that different outputs will demand changes to these numbers, but isn't this where we should all start?

I am genuinely asking. You both clearly have a better grasp on color.
What you have is right, color is very subjective and your tool is a great basis for anyone to use.
 

Christian @ 2CT Media

Active Member
Gene, if you switch to the Bridge Coated it shows the printable values. The numbers should be 716-CP for example. This means Coated surface, Process build. 716- C is coated surface, Formula build.

But for your tool what you have is excellent. You are giving us a quick starting point to work with colors.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
So the tool is built using what Pantone suggest are the closest CMYK, HEX & RGB values for their solid coated colors (https://www.pantone.com/color-finder/716-C) for example. Isn't that what we should all be using, since they define the color? I mean I get that different outputs will demand changes to these numbers, but isn't this where we should all start?
I think Pantone has done a very good job with their concise explanation of the benefits of using the current Bridge color values…

https://www.pantone.com/color-intelligence/articles/technical/pantone-color-bridge-what-has-changed

The single web page repeats the virtues of
"The new Color Bridge Guide also features improved CMYK values to provide more reliable guidance..."
"The new Color Bridge Guides are now produced with improved CMYK values..."
 

Jester

Slow is Fast
I'll start by saying that I do understand that my objections might be mostly theoretical, and that use of a Pantone book by designer and printer can often give a commercially acceptable result (but with many caveats, such as only when viewed under identical lighting conditions). I just question their decision to omit the most useful information about their named colors. Rant follows: ;)

I think Pantone has done a very good job with their concise explanation of the benefits of using the current Bridge color values… https://www.pantone.com/color-intelligence/articles/technical/pantone-color-bridge-what-has-changed

"The new Color Bridge Guides are now produced with improved CMYK values that were created without manually adjusting individual colors, in order to illustrate results you can expect to achieve from a typical commercial printer."​

But sign makers don't output on "typical commercial printers", which I take to mean offset press on paper. We typically use digital inkjets on vinyl or ACM or coroplast and many other substrates.

"Conversion of Pantone Spot color into CMYK, RGB, or other color systems is dependent on the specific print conditions for a given application. Therefore, the values provided within the Color Bridge Guide are not absolute, but rather starting points."​
and
"The appearance of colors in guides and books can change over time as a result of handling, fading, improper storage, and light exposure, among other factors. For these reasons, we do not consider the colors in our printed guides the official color standards, but rather representations of the master standard color data."​

So... Pantone warns us that the CMYK values they provide are NOT a standard, and we shouldn't rely on them but only use them as a starting point for an offset press. I can accept that... UNTIL they also tell us that the the printed swatches in the Guides are NOT an official color standard AND they fail to provide access to their master standard color data (i.e., a measurement in CIE color space). I don't see how one can say Pantone is providing a "standard" at all - at least, not by the capabilities of today's color specifying and measurement technology. I see Pantone as being more like a common color shorthand.

If Pantone were to truly be a Standard they would publish the measurements of their master colors in CIE L*a*b* (or other device-independent color specification). Heck, they even show a photo next to the above quotes of a person measuring the L*a*b* of a printed Pantone sheet - a sheet which they admit is NOT a color standard!!!

Of course, if printers had access to the L*a*b* we would not need to buy annual swatch books. Printers could measure their output with their own colorimeter / spectrophotometer (heck, Pantone owns x-rite!) and directly determine the accuracy of their match to the designer's stated color intent. Of course, to avoid disappointment we hope that the designer IS using a current visual sample (commercial swatch book, our output device's printed color chart, etc.) when they specify a spot color.

Pantone knows their product is becoming less relevant. That's why they produce items like "this year's fashion color book" and other schemes in order to induce the graphic arts trades to keep buying new books each year.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
If Pantone were to truly be a Standard they would publish the measurements of their master colors in CIE L*a*b* (or other device-independent color specification).
I'm curious, if you had all those values, how would you use them exactly? They are for sale as a license by Pantone. After your first inquiry, you'll get an email like the attached...
 

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ikarasu

Active Member
How often do you guys actually use the CMYK values from a pantone to get a color match?
I usually scan the pantone book, input the LAB Values into onyx... and print a swatch. 7/10 times the scanned value is a close enough match, 2/10 times it's within the swatches onyx picks... and 1/10 times I have to eyeball it.

just browsing another site that lists CMYK and LAB from pantones ( https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp )

Lets take

7479 C green as an example. Note: I have not printed this color, so maybe my device values are way off.

7479C
CMYK - 100,0,39,19
LAB: 73.34 , -58.61, 27.63


Now if I goto pantone books in onyx...

7479C:
Device values: 73.3, 0, 83.9, 0 - Quite a bit different, and nowhere near what values the site says


so If I started with what the site says, I'd be pretty far off.... whereas if I took the LAB value and put it in, I'd be pretty close.




CMYK Values mean nothing to me for color matching... I always use LAB and then tweak by eye if I need to. Maybe I'm doing it wrong, or ineficiently... But color seems to be subjective anyways. And most of the time when someone gives a pantone, theyre basing it on the pretty, over satured monitor color and cant understand why when you pull a pantone book out and show them it's a perfect match, you cant match what their monitor at home showed them.
 

Jester

Slow is Fast
I'm curious, if you had all those values, how would you use them exactly?
Create a spot color in AI/CDR defined by the Lab value of the designer's requested PMS color. Let the ICC color correction process, as the file passes from vector design to pre-press (PDF) to RIP to output device (printer), do its magic to produce the requested spot color in the output. Close the loop by verifing the output using color tools to see if the result is within the tolerance (delta-e) appropriate to the project's / client's needs. [Edit] Now, our digital printing has a fully digital workflow, without the need for color booths and tweaking color curves or ink percentages in the RIP to get the output to "look right".

They are for sale as a license by Pantone.
I didn't know this! It certainly makes sense that they would be. Knowing there is a commercial need for them verifies that I'm not completely mis-understanding the subject!
Based on the NDA et cetera, I suspect they are not in the budget for a small sign maker. :)
 
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FireSprint.com

Trade Only Screen & Digital Sign Printing
How often do you guys actually use the CMYK values from a pantone to get a color match?
I usually scan the pantone book, input the LAB Values into onyx... and print a swatch. 7/10 times the scanned value is a close enough match, 2/10 times it's within the swatches onyx picks... and 1/10 times I have to eyeball it.

This.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
But sign makers don't output on "typical commercial printers", which I take to mean offset press on paper. We typically use digital inkjets on vinyl or ACM or coroplast and many other substrates.
Typical commercial printers use the basic ink colors and may use the PMS inks. Are you saying sign makers meet, exceed, or fall short in meeting expectations regarding color?

I'm curious, if you had all those values, how would you use them exactly?
Create a spot color in AI/CDR defined by the Lab value of the designer's requested PMS color. Let the ICC color correction process, as the file passes from vector design to pre-press (PDF) to RIP to output device (printer), do its magic to produce the requested spot color in the output.
This is exactly how the system already works by choosing a Pantone library swatch which is using its Lab value.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
How often do you guys actually use the CMYK values from a pantone to get a color match?
Mainly used just as reference and also to match photo element colors to spot colors in the design if they're CMYK files.

I usually scan the pantone book,
You can lookup the Pantone color's Lab in Adobe software instead of the trouble scanning.

just browsing another site that lists CMYK and LAB from pantones ( https://www.e-paint.co.uk/Lab_values.asp )
The Lab values are not far off. They tell you to use the sRGB color space which is necessary to know. They don't tell you, however, the CMYK color space. I can tell by comparing the CMYK numbers that the press is not at all calibrated to gray and has a severe Cyan bias which the profile is compensating for, and it's too light. The value of the CMYK readout is to only avoid that press.

And most of the time when someone gives a pantone, theyre basing it on the pretty, over satured monitor color and cant understand why when you pull a pantone book out and show them it's a perfect match, you cant match what their monitor at home showed them.
I realize you're generalizing, but most any Pantone spec comes from a professional environment, skilled or not as it may be. Somebody has a swatch on that end, the sign maker has a swatch on this end. Pantone has done its job of distributing the color and both swatches that they produced match. They have communicated the color. They're now using L* a* b* values which helps. Industries and users need to know how to use their gear, their measurement systems, their processes, etc.
 

C5 Service&Repair

New Member
The conversion of color between CMYK, LAB, RGB and Pantone all hinge on your equipment being properly profiled. The CMYK values that Pantone provide are actually intended for offset or web printing, as long as the densities (profile of the press), is set per what Pantone uses. Those values mean pretty much nothing to the digital inkjet printing world. LAB values are the most accurate, again provided that your profiles and white points are correct. Inaccurate white points in profiles are the things that fists of hair being pulled out are made of.
When the media is profiled correctly, most every RIP has the Pantone libraries built in with LAB values and will print them as accurate as your ink's color gamut will allow. Converting pantone to CMYK for inkjet printing is basically just telling the printer to print this random CMYK value and ignore the Pantone provided LAB values.
RGB values are just a reference for online/web colors but again vary by the temperature of the screen or tube in older tvs. (think Walmart tv wall and they all look slightly different). Accurately profiled monitors can produce very accurate and repeatable color.
 

ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
The conversion of color between CMYK, LAB, RGB and Pantone all hinge on your equipment being properly profiled.
If you're speaking of an ICC profile, the statement is not actually accurate. The printer only needs to be calibrated to properly use the values. The printer may use the values to meet the color without an ICC profile so long, as you've said, as the inks can meet the gamut.
 
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ColorCrest

All around shop helper.
Those values mean pretty much nothing to the digital inkjet printing world.
Sorry, CMYK values are part of daily color communication, like it or not, and are especially useful when they're understood. The majority of misunderstanding is when the particular CMYK color space is unknown and lack of skill of the user. The values provide a sort of directional compass as well as a centerline. For example, the CMYK values cited earlier tell me the machine is terribly Cyan biased and light. It also reveals any grayscale images would appear anemic compared to a high quality print.
 
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