Free Design vs. No Free Design

[bob]

Where and when did 'design' become separate and distinct from the sign itself?

Back in the days before computers you prepared a substrate, roughly laid it out with some charcoal and/or stabillos, and then painted the thing. That rough layout was the design. You didn't spend a lot of time on that step, just a rough idea of what you were going to do. The brushes made the letters and the sign. Sometimes you sketched the layout, roughly and with bold strokes, on paper if the client just had to see what you had in mind. In the end, the sign was the truth.

With the advent of computers, where everyone is a sign writer, a comprehensive image is not only possible, it's inherent in the process. It remains simply laying out the sign and as such, just part of the job.

Attempting to charge for what is, or at least should be, a quick sketch of a layout merely because the media you use for that sketch provides an actual miniature of the work is the act of either someone who has way too high of an opinion of their work or a cheap chiseler. If doing a layout takes you so much time you feel you have to charge extra for it, you're spending way too much time on it or you're not as good as you think you are.

 

[Rick]

I'm a designer, I don't make signs, just design them, so I have to charge... I have 3 shops I work for that give my work away to sell the signs - they make money - I do not 100% agree with that policy.

My opinion is MY sign shop would charge for logo design and if they wanted to shop my sign design they would pay for that too, that is if I had a sign shop. I understand the idea that design is the marketing tool to sell the sign and can be done for free to sell the sign. But what types of sketches are we talking about? the 5 minute quickie sketches or the got to pull up Muni-Code, need the entire sign program from the mall owner, look up ADA and Fire codes for that city and design the logo - sketches.

A channel letter sketch with the sign code research, superimposed on the building usually takes an hour. And that is after some sign salesmen spent time measuring, shooting pics and talking to the client.

A wrap can take 8-40 hours depending on the complexity of the design or the originality of the artwork, and I go back and forth with the customer... the final design is usually something they wanted or art directed and in my opinion a finished product.

Logo design is another beast, I can make a cool one in 5 minutes, or end up with crap after 80 hours...

I recently finished a small monument sign (10' high x 15' wide) that took 225 hours of my time alone going back and forth with the client, then the city had to approve the design and landscaping, then submitted for architectural review and then back with the client, then the fabrication and install team before the bid could be made.

I also finished a sign submittal for a huge apartment complex - some 225 pages of sign design with a budget probably close to a million dollars. I have about 130 hours in it... add the trips to the project, countless meeting, flying and hotel rooms for my client. We don't know if the client even likes the design, that is just the initial submittal and budget numbers.

At some point, someone is going to have to pay.

Back in the day, we hardly worried about "branding" and getting the logo exact or superimposing it on the car or building because it probably was not going to happen on the sketch...

Back in the day, all you needed was a pencil and paper, what's that? 10-15 cents? My sketching tools cost considerably more, we are complicated by the ease of sending a .pdf, printing it, and taking the drawing and shopping it around - by the way, my old boss never let a freebie hand sketch go out the door.

I don't think there is a right or wrong policy, just know that each policy has disadvantages...I think including both policies depending on the type of work is the best way.

 

[SignProPlus-Chip]

BEGIN RANT:

It really depends on the job. Simple signage, where I am just laying out type in varying flavors, etc...I charge a small setup fee to cover the time involved. 20 minutes is 20 minutes, period

But with our shop, and I am sure it's the same with many of you out there, we do more than just make signs. Sometime, yes, we have to design the "look" of everything for a client. So more time is involved, and it is a very separate thing than just the creation of a sign, because they will use it almost as a branding, kind of a freshening up of their current look. All sorts of different jobs like this pop up from time to time, unless you're strictly a shop that only produced text based signage, like "grand opening" or "no parking".

With that said, no design work is free. It takes time, and my time is not disposable by any means. My time is how I make money, pay my bills and survive. I used to do a lot of work on spec but got tired of dealing with clients that could not make up their minds and kept wanting to revise, revise, revise, basically burning up my schedule.

Here is a line I hate..."design me something and if I like it we will move forward with it"...or "then I'll pay for it". Sorry, not any more.

I don't have some high and mighty opinion of my work, but I am a professional, with years of experience and very confident in my abilities. My roots are old school, as I started out doing everything by hand, and lived through the evolution of the design industry as computers became more commonplace to the present where they are now the standard in producing design work.

Samples of my work hang all over the shop walls and you can flip through my design book. Clients need to trust the designer and not feel they have to provide input every step of the way or micromanage the professional that know what they are doing.

Don't want to give me a deposit to start work on a design, then there is the door. What's that? you were going to get your brother's, son's, dorm mate's, cousin's, uncle to do it for you anyway? Go ahead, you'll either be back to darken my door, or end up with really crappy design work.

END RANT:

FYI - As an illustrator/designer I have never worked for ANY company in the past 25 years that would only pay if they liked something, or had me work solely on spec. This seems to be a situation localized in the sign industry, or with freelance graphic designers and illustrators working directly with the public.

 

[TyrantDesigner]

I have an always will dedicate a 15-30 minute block to a potential customer to proof out a design (whether digital or physical) where in that time it's half questions, all with the intent on finding out what someone wants. Now, there are 2 conditions to the proofs here in this shop ... 1. They don't get one in hand (or in digital format) to take with them ... sorry, tired of that mess. and 2. I early set forth the expectation that 'free' proofing is a basic design service, advanced art production is not included. Freelancing, I might dedicate a 3-10 minute proofing session .. my portfolio is worth it's weight for seeing what I CAN do ... if if it's not what the customer WANTS me to do. After that ... my design time costs money.

I still won't quote pricing over the phone unless it's a set price service ... custom work is always custom pricing and saying 'well ... it will cost between x and y ..." they will come in saying "but ... but .. you said it would cost x ..." and let me tell you that ... **** that.

 

[Craig Sjoquist]

Bob there is a difference between a designing a logo & layout of a sign advertisement for me anyway Designing of a logo I charge for
...Designing of a layout I do not that is included in the production of advertisement & even though time is spent on this process, telling a customer I be charging for this time I'd be laughed out or chased by dogs.

Screen set up was a way this charge happen before & also computer set up is how it is charged now in some shops.

Most jobs that are of any size here get charged 1 to 2 hours just for this purpose but not seen.

 

[royster13]

In the words of Bill Clinton, "It is just arithmetic".....It does not matter whether you show a sign as 1,000.00 (design included) or 800.00 + 200.00 (design charge), the project is still 1,000.00...So in my mind, the design is not really free, it is just built in.....

 

[Rick]

I treat "spec art" just like my other marketing costs......It is an investment that results in sales....And based on the amount of sales I have got from doing "spec art" I can not imagine operating any other way.....But it is important to qualify the clients before you proceed.....

In the words of Bill Clinton, "It is just arithmetic".....It does not matter whether you show a sign as 1,000.00 (design included) or 800.00 + 200.00 (design charge), the project is still 1,000.00...So in my mind, the design is not really free, it is just built in.....

With your "arithmetic", if they don't buy the sign, are you out 200 bucks?

 

[OldPaint]

i get this all the time.
1st......i try to get them to show up in person, sit beside me at the computer .....and i proceed to razzle dazzle em with my expertise at LAYOUT AND DESIGN.
i will ofer them 3 levels of a sign:
GOOD
BETTER
BEST
i then tell them a price RANGE for each and tell them in honesty...........MY DESIGN CAPABILITIES ARE ONLY LIMITED by what you wish to pay.
NEXT: they will ask for a print out and then i tell them THAT REQUIRES A DEPOSIT(if they want the one i spent some time designing!!! the good, is usually nothing more then the text they asked for and maybe some basic clip-art.)
i will not QUOTE EXACT PRICES on the phone or in emails. i say
A SIGN LIKE THAT is in the range of $50-$200.......and leave it at that till they are sitting next to me at the computer.
example of wasted time on phone calls:
LADY: do you make yard signs? ME: yes i do. LADY do you PRICE MATCH other sign shops? ME: no i dont ..........GOODBYE))))
had nothing to start with didnt lose anything.

 

[Joe Diaz]

With your "arithmetic", if they don't buy the sign, are you out 200 bucks?

You don't need to work for free in order to sell a job. That's what portfolios are for. Even if the design time is calculated into the project, it's key that the client knows that your design expertise has value, if they think that you are just throwing that in to sell the job, they will never take you seriously as a designer, and you could miss out on other non-sign design projects, or as I like to call it: more money. I mean how can you expect them to value your design work, if you don't value it?

Look, when the economy went bad four years ago in our area, we lost a lot of sign and vehicle business, but with the design services we offered, we could cast a wider net and get additional business, even outside of our local market. This was only possible because we charge for those services. Our shop has been in business for over 30 years, and we have always charged for design work, so it is possible to do it without giving these services away.

 

[SignProPlus-Chip]

I mean how can you expect them to value your design work, if you don't value it?

This.

This times 1000!

 

[bob]

...I mean how can you expect them to value your design work, if you don't value it?...

Please explain the mechanism that links whatever one person values to what some other person values. What causes you valuing X to cause someone else to also value X? Conversely, if you don't value, say, gold, does that mean no one else will either and your ingots are safe sitting on a shelf in your garage?

This is yet another for those things that sounds good, causes everyone to nod knowingly, but, upon examination, is meaningless.

This is not to say you should or should not charge for some service or another, but don't do it because of this silly and bankrupt saying. Have a real reason. A reason such as "I want to and I can" is far superior to this bit of drivel.

 

[Joe Diaz]

I've learned long ago to not waste my time explaining things to you bob. You seem to think you have things all sussed out, so why don't we leave it at that. Nothing I say will get through.

 

[Techman]

Royster said it..

But it is important to qualify the clients before you proceed.

That is one of the most important parts of it all.
Find out what his needs are by profiling him.
If he needs a production type sign at 60 bux then there is no use in attempting to sell a 5 grand panel.

If he is needing a 5 grand sign but has a 60 bux vision then its time to do the rough design and sell that sign. 4 P's works..