Friends with other sign shops, why the problem

[ams]

You just contradicted yourself. You taught the guy who went to Sir Speedy everything you knew and he still poached from from you. The other shops who you used to utilize and patronize taught you plenty I'm sure.

I'm buddies with the guys down the street and they poach from us all the time. Its not like we throw up our hands if one of their disgruntled or former clients comes here and refuse their work, but we don't actively work at poaching their clients. We don't make a big deal about it because we get jobs we both bid on just as frequently but for different reasons based on our longer industry experience, better reputation, ease of working together and sometimes price I'm sure. We're happy with our approach, pricing and sales revenue without compromising our ethics. With thousands of customers in our data base, we have a hard enough time checking in with the folks we've done work for in the past but not heard from in a while let alone try to poach other shops customers.

This is more about you and how you presented the initial post on this thread, how its morphed a little as we dig deeper into it, your responses to many of our responses, etc.

Actually no they didn't teach me anything and I didn't ask. I simply purchased signs from them, borrowed materials and referred customers to them, the same they did with me.

 

[ams]

You know nothing about my business, my products, my local market. I don't need any local "buddies". I am not looking for business, materials or help of any kind from my competitors. I am good at planning, purchasing and execution. I have a market, and I keep what I do, how I do it and who my customers to myself.

You did not clarify what you meant from the other post:
"So it's not possible for them to buy from me at wholesale and resell them? It was my customer to begin with, not theirs. So it still doesn't make sense to me." Again I don't think you have written this correctly and I don't want to guess.

You don't know anything about my business or local market either.

 

[player]

You don't know anything about my business or local market either.

I'm not the one crying here that nobody will work with me. You are not actually reading what others are saying. I work independantly from the sign shops in my area.

You said:

If you don't work with other sign shops, then you are losing out on more jobs and making yourself an enemy to the others. If you aren't willing to give the time of day to someone, they may target you and try to get business away from you. You don't understand logic and I am not being snippy. It's common sense. If I was being snippy I'd be making a big scene over this and not just a general discussion.

I have no issues with my competitors like you do. You say if I don't suck up to them they will come after me. So I better start sucking up to the other locals around here? You can all you want. I for one will carry on owning my future and not kowtow to the whims of other sign shops. I will also throw anyone that even remotely resembles you out of my shop.

 

[ams]

I'm not the one crying here that nobody will work with me. You are not actually reading what others are saying. I work independantly from the sign shops in my area.

You said:



I have no issues with my competitors like you do. You say if I don't suck up to them they will come after me. So I better start sucking up to the other locals around here? You can all you want. I for one will carry on owning my future and not kowtow to the whims of other sign shops. I will also throw anyone that even remotely resembles you out of my shop.

Wow... you aren't even worth having a discussion with. Angry little sign shop man.

 

[toucan_graphics]

They invest heavily in equipment, space and staff to be able to have an advantage and a niche. You take their customers using their products without any of the investment and expect them to happily provide you with their services at a discount so you can continue to be their competitor...

You hit the nail on the head.

Cooperation between shops only works if both shops see an upside. The shop wholesaling to the other shop doesn't get much of an upside. They cut their potential profit by discounting to another shop who will sell the discounted goods to a customer at regular price. The 2nd shop gets all the profit for just a little work while the 1st shop just has the work with very little profit.

The remedy to this is to establish a cooperation that benefits BOTH shops. I have a relationship with a shop which is literally 1 mile down the road. Our cooperation is based on referrals and skill trading. An example is I don't offer screen printing and he does. I refer all of my customers who need screen printing to him and in turn he provides discounted products to me and the odd jobs that he doesn't have time for. Additionally, he is more of a production guy with less design skill than many shops, There have been many times where I have traded my design time on HIS jobs and he has in turn provided materials or products for free or almost free when I was in a pinch.

This relationship works to benefit BOTH of us so it continues without issue.

 

[decalman]

When I started out, 17 years ago, I was dealt with cold and harshly by other sign businesses. I learned to avoid them, my whole career.
People that are warm to each other are more highly elevated.. I believe in friendly and tender dealings with all people.

 

[player]

Wow... you aren't even worth having a discussion with. Angry little sign shop man.

What discussion? You keep writing things that are incoherent, then add it doesn't make any sense. The market is speaking to you, just as I and some others here are. I am not angry BTW.

Look, you seem like a good guy. I am letting you know my side, or the side of guys that through bad experiences have decided to work without relationships with competitors. You said you have grown over the last 3 years. Well done. That growth is probably reflected in less sales for the shops you think should play ball in your business plan.

 

[Gino]

Friends are friends and competitors are competitors. I real businessperson will keep their friends close to them, while a savvy businessperson will keep the enemies even closer.

Sounds like you've made enemies of your once allies, huh ?? No problem..... turn them back into friends if you need more friends. Take candy to their shop, buy them ice cream in the summer, take a bottle of booze over to their shop on a Friday afternoon. If you're having trouble with long term relationships, maybe it's not about work, but you... yourself. If you haven't changed your ways, then they must just plain not like YOU. Some people just don't like other people and there's no real explanation...... ya just fall out of liking someone. If you're annoyed because your friends don't like you anymore, find new friends and this time try to keep them out of the same line of business.
I have long time competitors that are/have been great friends both in business and after work. Some of them I go drinking with, been to their kid's wedding, been to parties and other things. We exchange news, business ideas and even supplies someone might run out of stoopidly. There are others who won't give me the time of day, but they've already called on me for favors and I was there for them..... just not the other way around. I know almost as much about their business as they know about their own. I have NEVER gone after another person's business knowingly. If they come to me, I will not refuse, but ask them why they are leaving so-and-so. I'm not in business to turn work away, but I'm also not in business to hurt my neighbor, unless he crosses me. THIS, I have done. After 44 years doing this, I can pretty much name my price and terms, if they don't like it, I'll actually tell them..... do yourself a favor and go to XYZ, they can do it cheaper then me. One more thing, in our little town and surrounding areas, there are at least 125 sign shops. Not to mention all the backyard hacks and Spanish or illegal shops all over town. It's not hard to get on one's good or bad side around here. I wholesale to many of them, so what they say about me is all behind my back. I don't care about that. I just know, I've never gone after a single person's customer. And if the customer comes to me after the sign shop came to me, I'll quote it higher than the other guy did.

I seriously think there is a lot more to this original story than meets the eye for the OP. How one handles himself in regular life, in business and/or on a forum such as this says alot. Player said it best. You just have to be honest with yourself and stop telling stories. You'll get pimples on your tongue..... or your nose is gonna grow.

 

[Marlene]

we have a long standing friendship with another local company as most of ours jobs types don't cross over and we use each other to get those areas done. past that, I can't see an advantage to hanging out with other shops. I do refer people to other shops as we don't do wraps and there is a shop that does a nice job with them so I refer them to that shop. when I get a call from someone that clearly is going to be more trouble then they are worth, I refer them to another shop and let them deal with that

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

They invest heavily in equipment, space and staff to be able to have an advantage and a niche. You take their customers using their products without any of the investment and expect them to happily provide you with their services at a discount so you can continue to be their competitor...

The price should still be at the same level with the work performed.

They are doing no work to get those customers. If they were then their price would be less then the middle man. Quality of work would be the same and so they would win the job. He is bringing you work and you don't have to do anything to get it. On top of that he is taking care of all the middle man jobs like talking with the customer about price, artwork, little stupid things the customers ask. And you just sit back and he brings you jobs. I would welcome anyone that wants to bring me this type of work. If you underbid and aren't making money that's your problem, not the guy that's bringing you work. And if you can't get the customers that he is bringing you in the first place then what's the big deal.
With the prices you provide him with he shouldn't be able to beat your price to do the same work. So he wouldn't be able to steal your customers or get the majority of the work in your market. Thus making him a non-threat. If anything he should be welcomed in your market because he is going to drive prices up.

 

[player]

He builds up a name and reputation for a sign product you are making. Once his volume is enough he buys the equipment (most likely new, better and cheaper than yours). Of course he stops buying from you, as do a number of existing and future customers.

 

[Andy D]

You hit the nail on the head.

Cooperation between shops only works if both shops see an upside. The shop wholesaling to the other shop doesn't get much of an upside. They cut their potential profit by discounting to another shop who will sell the discounted goods to a customer at regular price. The 2nd shop gets all the profit for just a little work while the 1st shop just has the work with very little profit.

The remedy to this is to establish a cooperation that benefits BOTH shops. I have a relationship with a shop which is literally 1 mile down the road. Our cooperation is based on referrals and skill trading. An example is I don't offer screen printing and he does. I refer all of my customers who need screen printing to him and in turn he provides discounted products to me and the odd jobs that he doesn't have time for. Additionally, he is more of a production guy with less design skill than many shops, There have been many times where I have traded my design time on HIS jobs and he has in turn provided materials or products for free or almost free when I was in a pinch.

This relationship works to benefit BOTH of us so it continues without issue.

I think ya'll are making this too complicated... we wholesale to other sign companies, marketing companies, event promoters, etc.
What do I care if it's a sign company down the street or a marketing company across the country?
They get a discount, because they took care of all the back and forth bull sh#t with their customer and did the the designing.

My customers that I wholesale to know I'm not going to proof check their design, it needs to be ready to go, in a file format we use.
It's the easiest, cut-and-dry jobs you can get.

Anyone that refuses work just because it's for another sign company is just cutting off
their nose to spite their face because they will just buy it from someone else and the only one that loses out is you.

 

[TimToad]

I think ya'll are making this too complicated... we wholesale to other sign companies, marketing companies, event promoters, etc.
What do I care if it's a sign company down the street or a marketing company across the country?
They get a discount, because they took care of all the back and forth bull sh#t with their customer and did the the designing.

My customers that I wholesale to know I'm not going to proof check their design, it needs to be ready to go, in a file format we use.
It's the easiest, cut-and-dry jobs you can get.

Anyone that refuses work just because it's for another sign company is just cutting off
their nose to spite their face because they will just buy it from someone else and the only one that loses out is you.

I agree. Unless there is something else going on behind the scenes in this case, many of us are making too much of this. I tried to stick to the OP's initial issues and questions but the thread has morphed a bit.

We do wholesale work for several other local shops and except for helping with a last minute rush order to keep their customer happy, barely any of it is peer to peer work where we both possess the same equipment or skills. Nearly all of our wholesale work comes in the from of print ready files and we're just printing the stuff and/or mounting whatever they tell us to mount it to.

As far as us "losing" money on these jobs, it doesn't happen. Many of us underestimate the time involved in customer service, making the sale, design, etc. I still mark up my materials to my wholesale customers and as long as we don't screw something up and have to rerun things multiple times, we make about half our normal profit margin.

To those who think doing wholesale work opens the door for others to chip away at our client base, that can only happen if you aren't treating your customers well, pricing your work fairly or ignoring their needs. I don't consider the one time bargain hunting customers "mine" except for the one time they use us.

The primary reason others less equipped come to us is our flatbed printer and large format printer capable of contour cutting.

Anybody around here that wants to invest in a $89,000 flatbed, a $25,000 inkjet, a laminator, all the needed software, training to run these things, shop space, and most importantly, figure out to how to quickly catch up to my 35+ years of design and fabrication experience and this shop's 9 year head start, HAVE AT IT. It would take someone of equivalent skills, knowledge and experience years to be able to fully compete and wrestle away any substantial number of clients from anyone worth their salt.

 

[player]

^Easy. Buy the equipment. Price cheaper. Most customers/purchasers buy based on the lowest price. YES there are some that don't, but many that do.

 

[TammieH]

Like a few of us have said, back in the day, a lot of sign painters knew each other, traded services and helped each other out in a pinch.

Yes, there are competitors out there that hurt the business in general, but I see nothing wrong with keeping friends and have a good relationship with quality sign shops.

Competition is good.

 

[rossmosh]

^Easy. Buy the equipment. Price cheaper. Most customers/purchasers buy based on the lowest price. YES there are some that don't, but many that do.

I recommend you start marketing a few jobs that you outsource. It may take you a few years to find out what projects and products are profitable but I promise, they are out there. We have 3-4 products that we outsource and the profit margins are great and there is absolutely no way I could even think about entering those markets as a producer.

The reality is, if you're a 1000-1500 sq ft sign shop, you can offer every service and make it profitable. You have to justify the expense of the equipment, shop space, and shop resources. Also if you don't do something regularly, you'll often be inefficient and was a result, less profitable. Some shops can do everything in house. For a short time I worked at a shop that was massive and had capabilities to do just about everything in house. Did they? Nope. Why? Because it didn't make sense.

The reality is, every business needs vendors they can count on. Whether it's the sign shop down the road or someone 3000 miles away. Obviously there are draw backs with working with someone 20 minutes down the road, but there are also benefits. It's all about sitting down and figuring out what makes sense for your business.

 

[decalman]

You can't be friends with sign business people.
Unfortunately, They're a bunch of twits.

In this case. Birds of a feather, DON"T FLOCK TOGETHER

 

[Brink]

In a given geographical area, if there is market saturation, competitors will not get along so well. There are exceptions sure. There are also differences in product offerings. But, if there is fierce competition for the same product offerings and local competitors are starving and not able to make the bills and/or payroll not to mention being profitable, they will see each other as the problem. It's just a fact of life. If there are plenty of work and the few who cover that product line that is in demand are backed up and can't get it all done, they can pretty much name their price and be very co-operative with the other shops that do the same.

I know that the preceding paragraph has a lot of ifs and a couple of run-on sentences. But, if we did stick together and co-operate more often especially where price and quality are concerned, it would be a much better industry for us all.

 

[signed off]

wow i guess we are the odd man out on this discussion, Yes we are very good friends with 2 other sign shops, so good that we gave them each a key to the place so that they could laminate at night when their machines went down, 2 other shops we are good acquaintances ( one we give ink or product to when their delivery is late and they are on a dead line) they have on numerous occasions returned the favors. When our power went down and shop had to be rewired they stepped up to print or laminate for us and one went as far as " load your equipment in your truck and bring it here and use my back shop. We have been burned by a couple of shops over the years but they are no longer in business... just saying.

 

[gabagoo]

I have always been friendly with other sign shops as long as I feel the love. Long before there was a Signs101, I know for myself that I valued their help with customer situations or material recommendations.

Treating them like enemies is just immature behavior.