from BMYK to CMYK inks

[MuhammadOsta]

Hi there..

I'm using Mimaki JV300-160 with 4-color BMYK, where "B" stands for "Blue" it's a more saturated color than Cyan. I'm considering using non-oem inks which they come as CMYK (no blue available).
I'm worried about the Blue color being changed to Cyan, I have a lot of catalogs for fabrics printed using the BMYK system, now changing to CMYK i know i have to change the color values in the EPS files.. my questions are:

1- is there a faster way to match the old BMYK colors with CMYK from the printer or the icc profiles.

2- if i have to change the color values manually for each design file, how do i do that?

for example: a color printed using BMYK system with color values C:50 , M:90 , Y:0 , K:20 when printing with CMYK maybe need to add more black and a little more magenta.. but i can't figure out what ratio to increase so i have the same output.

please advice me what to do

 

[GaSouthpaw]

If you go with the new ink set, your best bet will be to buy a spectrophotometer and build new profiles. Otherwise, you're going to waste a lot of time tweaking every time you reprint something.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

In concept there shouldn't really be anything you need to do. Either software will take your design and use the printing method selected to create the same end product. So all colors etc. should be the same........ The same if you have your BMYK printer profiled to hit pantones correctly and then profile your new CMYK printer to hit those same colors. Even thought it has different inksets the RIP will use that inkset to make the same end product. The same way you print large format and then send the same design to your desktop printer. They are both different inksets and printing methods. But the original design and colors in the design never changed. Essentially that is all you would have to do. Now if your trying to match your BMYK prints to your CMYK prints and your BMYK printer was never profiled correctly to print colors correctly then you will have more trouble. Either situation would be the same trials though. If you never profiled your machine you would have to figure out what colors actually print when you print certain pantones. Then go into your new machine and alter the profiling till your printing the same on both machines. It's better if you start with a properly configured machine and then get another to match that. It's a little more difficult to match a machine that has never been profiled correctly. Because your not actually trying to profile it right your just trying to match the way it prints wrong.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Also reading back shouldn't they have an entirely different driver for CMYK inksets. That alone should tell the RIP your using C instead of Blue.

 

[MuhammadOsta]

If you go with the new ink set, your best bet will be to buy a spectrophotometer and build new profiles. Otherwise, you're going to waste a lot of time tweaking every time you reprint something.

I know very little about analyzing colors using spectro.. i think i should start learning about it.. do you know a respectable learning course i can buy online.. like videos?

In concept there shouldn't really be anything you need to do. Either software will take your design and use the printing method selected to create the same end product. So all colors etc. should be the same........ The same if you have your BMYK printer profiled to hit pantones correctly and then profile your new CMYK printer to hit those same colors. Even thought it has different inksets the RIP will use that inkset to make the same end product. The same way you print large format and then send the same design to your desktop printer. They are both different inksets and printing methods. But the original design and colors in the design never changed. Essentially that is all you would have to do. Now if your trying to match your BMYK prints to your CMYK prints and your BMYK printer was never profiled correctly to print colors correctly then you will have more trouble. Either situation would be the same trials though. If you never profiled your machine you would have to figure out what colors actually print when you print certain pantones. Then go into your new machine and alter the profiling till your printing the same on both machines. It's better if you start with a properly configured machine and then get another to match that. It's a little more difficult to match a machine that has never been profiled correctly. Because your not actually trying to profile it right your just trying to match the way it prints wrong.

oh you've descried what i'm dying to make my dealer understand!
when i started using this printer i thought it's automatically has configuration set to print using BMYK where it change the Blue ratio to match the cyan value in the design file. but apparently the master mind behind jv300 didn't have this option available at all.
the printer use CMYK profile but the ink installed is Blue not Cyan, so the color i see after print won't be the same if i print with another printer using CMYK inks. it's so stupid from mimaki to have this configuration for it's RIP software.

 

[J Hill Designs]

I know very little about analyzing colors using spectro.. i think i should start learning about it.. do you know a respectable learning course i can buy online.. like videos?




oh you've descried what i'm dying to make my dealer understand!
when i started using this printer i thought it's automatically has configuration set to print using BMYK where it change the Blue ratio to match the cyan value in the design file. but apparently the master mind behind jv300 didn't have this option available at all.
the printer use CMYK profile but the ink installed is Blue not Cyan, so the color i see after print won't be the same if i print with another printer using CMYK inks. it's so stupid from mimaki to have this configuration for it's RIP software.

so the RIP was still set to CMYK but had custom profiles to use B instead? ugh.

 

[MuhammadOsta]

sorry i described it wrong. the RIP software does say BMYK but without the option to change to CMYK

 

[J Hill Designs]

sorry i described it wrong. the RIP software does say BMYK but without the option to change to CMYK

what RIP does it use? is it possible to load new CMYK profiles? I would imagine if its set to a BMYK profile it wouldn't have the option to change to CMYK

 

[MuhammadOsta]

what RIP does it use? is it possible to load new CMYK profiles? I would imagine if its set to a BMYK profile it wouldn't have the option to change to CMYK

I use the RIP software that came with the printer: Rasterlink-6
i wonder is there a way where i can give the RIP software custom CMYK profile? and if so, where do i get such a profile?

 

[Correct Color]

Also reading back shouldn't they have an entirely different driver for CMYK inksets. That alone should tell the RIP your using C instead of Blue.

No, not really. The primaries are defined by the ICC profile, not by the RIP. All that is is a processing option. It will work just fine.

Muhammed,

The bottom line is that the printer has to be reprofiled. That's always the case when you switch ink and it's no different in your case. Fact is that in large format inkjet in general, there aren't any industry standard primaries, so it's entirely possible that there are inks out there in other inksets that may have relatively the same chroma values as your "blue" that are called "cyan."

IF your machine was profiled correctly before, and the profiles you were using matched how it actually printed, then you should be able to have it reprofiled and what you print after profiling should match what you printed before, with the only caveat being whatever gamut difference you have by changing the inkset.

However, honestly, if you didn't have good solid accurate profiles in place before, then while you should get the thing reprofiled...

You're probably still going to have a task ahead of you.

(Edited to add: Just re-read and saw that you use Rasterlink.

Best advice: Since the machine can't be reprofiled with Rasterlink, do not change ink.)

 

[MuhammadOsta]

No, not really. The primaries are defined by the ICC profile, not by the RIP. All that is is a processing option. It will work just fine.

Muhammed,

The bottom line is that the printer has to be reprofiled. That's always the case when you switch ink and it's no different in your case. Fact is that in large format inkjet in general, there aren't any industry standard primaries, so it's entirely possible that there are inks out there in other inksets that may have relatively the same chroma values as your "blue" that are called "cyan."

IF your machine was profiled correctly before, and the profiles you were using matched how it actually printed, then you should be able to have it reprofiled and what you print after profiling should match what you printed before, with the only caveat being whatever gamut difference you have by changing the inkset.

However, honestly, if you didn't have good solid accurate profiles in place before, then while you should get the thing reprofiled...

You're probably still going to have a task ahead of you.

(Edited to add: Just re-read and saw that you use Rasterlink.

Best advice: Since the machine can't be reprofiled with Rasterlink, do not change ink.)

you know.. the funny thing is i don't want to change the color system at all.. i'm forced to!
mimaki official Representative here always out of original mimaki inks! every time i order i have to wait more than tow weeks so he can order it from out of country (high cost delivery also).. he is always on my nerve want me to change to the cheap non-oem inks he sell.
last time i needed about 50 liters, the company told me i have to wait at least a month! they are doing that on purpose.
i didn't try non-oem inks yet, but from what i see in the market it's not the same.. the fabric i make has perfect color stability.. i even tested the fabric with boiling water many times.. no fading in color which is impressive!

 

[CanuckSigns]

you know.. the funny thing is i don't want to change the color system at all.. i'm forced to!
mimaki official Representative here always out of original mimaki inks! every time i order i have to wait more than tow weeks so he can order it from out of country (high cost delivery also).. he is always on my nerve want me to change to the cheap non-oem inks he sell.
last time i needed about 50 liters, the company told me i have to wait at least a month! they are doing that on purpose.
i didn't try non-oem inks yet, but from what i see in the market it's not the same.. the fabric i make has perfect color stability.. i even tested the fabric with boiling water many times.. no fading in color which is impressive!

Tell him to stock the ink you need or you are finding another supplier. Maybe even get Mimaki involved, i'm sure they would be interested to hear about a dealer who is tying to push clients to 3rd party inks...

 

[SightLine]

Looking at the Mimaki site http://eng.mimaki.co.jp/product/inkjet/i-roll/jv300-series/download.html

If you are using BMYK then you are using sublimation inks. The only canned profiles Mimaki has for Rasterlink using sublimation inks is for their own. If you are going to use a third party ink then you will need profiles for that third party ink set specifically for Rasterlink. You have a couple of options. Stick with the OEM ink. Buy Mimaki Profile Master and a spectrophotometer and learn to create your own profiles (not cheap or simple). Get a different RIP that "hopefully" has some canned profiles for CMYK sublimation inks (also very expensive). The other catch with canned profiles - they are optimized for some other printer that is in some other environment. Yes the same model of printer but every printer is slightly unique and the average environmental temperatures and humidity also play a big role in color profiles. Might not be as "critical" on sublimation since its fabric and by nature will be a slightly softer image though but I really am not too sure since I've never looking into sublimation.

 

[MuhammadOsta]

Tell him to stock the ink you need or you are finding another supplier. Maybe even get Mimaki involved, i'm sure they would be interested to hear about a dealer who is tying to push clients to 3rd party inks...

I tried two other suppliers, every one of them directly contacted the official mimaki dealer and the dealer contacted me back telling me "what are you doing?". i was shocked when i knew that mimaki europe representative did nothing when they knew about the dealer selling non-oem inks and holding back on the original mimaki inks.

 

[MuhammadOsta]

Looking at the Mimaki site http://eng.mimaki.co.jp/product/inkjet/i-roll/jv300-series/download.html

If you are using BMYK then you are using sublimation inks. The only canned profiles Mimaki has for Rasterlink using sublimation inks is for their own. If you are going to use a third party ink then you will need profiles for that third party ink set specifically for Rasterlink. You have a couple of options. Stick with the OEM ink. Buy Mimaki Profile Master and a spectrophotometer and learn to create your own profiles (not cheap or simple). Get a different RIP that "hopefully" has some canned profiles for CMYK sublimation inks (also very expensive). The other catch with canned profiles - they are optimized for some other printer that is in some other environment. Yes the same model of printer but every printer is slightly unique and the average environmental temperatures and humidity also play a big role in color profiles. Might not be as "critical" on sublimation since its fabric and by nature will be a slightly softer image though but I really am not too sure since I've never looking into sublimation.

if only i can find a profile with CMYK sublimation inks that work for rasterlink, i have no problem buying it, i don't know where to look.
the RIP software as you said expensive and doesn't necessarily has CMYK for sublimation inks

 

[inkjet frank]

Its simple to change the ink set on jv300s. Log in the printer to technician change the setting and ink type. It will take you 10 min or less.

If you use Ergosoft rip software, matching colors will be much easier. You can print multiple squares with different receipts. Of course if you have spectrometer, that makes life easier.

Hi there..

I'm using Mimaki JV300-160 with 4-color BMYK, where "B" stands for "Blue" it's a more saturated color than Cyan. I'm considering using non-oem inks which they come as CMYK (no blue available).
I'm worried about the Blue color being changed to Cyan, I have a lot of catalogs for fabrics printed using the BMYK system, now changing to CMYK i know i have to change the color values in the EPS files.. my questions are:

1- is there a faster way to match the old BMYK colors with CMYK from the printer or the icc profiles.

2- if i have to change the color values manually for each design file, how do i do that?

for example: a color printed using BMYK system with color values C:50 , M:90 , Y:0 , K:20 when printing with CMYK maybe need to add more black and a little more magenta.. but i can't figure out what ratio to increase so i have the same output.

please advice me what to do

 

[MuhammadOsta]

Its simple to change the ink set on jv300s. Log in the printer to technician change the setting and ink type. It will take you 10 min or less.

If you use Ergosoft rip software, matching colors will be much easier. You can print multiple squares with different receipts. Of course if you have spectrometer, that makes life easier.

I know where to change the ink set but from the printer panel i can only choose between solvent ink sets or sublimation, both have options to set how many color and installation order.. however, the printer doesn't know Blue from Cyan.. it only show the international standard CMYK where "C" is actually installed as "B" but never written.