Fun Situation.

[psdesigns]

There's always 2 sides to every story, don't forget!

Non proffit, "donation", etc keeps getting thrown around... But he made $8400 off of them. The donation was his time in artwork.

We never give anything away for free... But if someone is buying $8400 worth of signs off us, usually artwork is included in the price.


Then it mentions 30-40 logos got turned into vector or made sure they printed clean. 30-40 logos is what ... 5-10 hours of time max, if you're going slow... I'm sure 90% of them were auto trace and it was more like a 2-5 hour job.


Op may consider his time vectorizing as a donation... But the client that dropped almost 9k on signage who doesn't even understand what a vector is, just wants his files so he can likely change it from 2021 to 2022... Because the guy lives in Texas, and a non profit buying something from out of state is more complicated than buying in state (tax exemptions, etc)

Not ops problem, but I don't think it's unrealistic for the client to want to buy local.... And if op was local, they'd probably still have the sale.... So why be a dick about it.


Nowhere does it say the client is threatening legal action. Just that he asked for the guys address to send him something.... For all we know it was a swag bag for being nice and sending the artwork! And now op is worried it's legal papers.... Which I highly doubt the client was even threatening with.


You owe the client nothing legally. But word of mouth is key, it's why so many shops fail.... The customer is always right is a popular saying for a reason, not because they're always right... But because of the hell they cause when you treat them like they're not.

It'd be a lot different ifnop donated 100 signs. But op "donated" a few hours of work on a $9000 banner / likely coro job. I think he's made enough profit to cover the few hours of art time he put into it!

Let's be honest Gross is $8500 profit about half. we have about a 50% margin we run with. What I didn't say is I donated a ton of signs to this nonprofit as well. Let's not forget Taxes in Cali so let's drop another 1.5k in that total profit for good old uncle sam. So again they got 100% of what they paid for and that was a ton of signage and banners. An entire year has passed why am I obligated to send them stuff? Will I be obligated to send them stuff 2 years from now? It just really does not make any sense as a business owner to waste my time with this. Why can't another sign shop put forth the effort if they decided they want to work with a local company? Oh, that's right because they don't make sure the work looks good with out charging.

 

[ikarasu]

They didn't pay for vectorizing lol, they Paid for the Signs that they got. I charge for vectorizing and if they paid for that service I would have no issues handing over the artwork.

Did you pay Disney for all the designs of theirs that you're using and profiting off of?

Thats what I mean when I say you post publicly on a forum...and when someone googles your name, they'll find out everything you wrote. I wanted to see if I could find this ice rink in your gallery... I havent seen it yet, but I've seen quite a few Iron man / super hero montages, Star wars, deadpool, NFL, etc shirts / signs / decals that I'm pretty sure you dont have permission to print.... Printing them is one thing, putting them on your work page as samples is pretty ballsy though This guy has no legal standing against you, but all it takes is for him to get pissed and forward your site to one of the dozen companies you stole copyrights from, and then you'd have something to be scared about. And that would be a pretty open / shut case... Disneys very protective as well, so I'd be careful with what you post on your website.

IMO, he's more entitled to his artwork than you are to Disneys.

 

[signbrad]

Also if anyone has any suggestions on some verbiage I can possibly put on my website to or on my invoices that will detour this from happening again. I am all ears! Some type of Disclamer or something stating you do not own the work we do unless stated on the invoice or contract etc. Maybe someone can point me in the proper direct for something like that I would be greatful!

On your Proposal, have a line item that states clearly who owns files.

For example, it could read, "All production files (including vector files) created by So-and-So Signs in the manufacture of sign work for [client], remain the property of the So-and-So Signs."
The disclaimer does not need to be complicated or written in legalese to have standing in court. And it certainly doesn't need to sound threatening. It just needs to be clear and businesslike. If the proposal is dated and signed by both parties, it can function as a contract.

If you want, you could add, "Production files may be purchased from So-and-So Signs for a sum of $__________, for a period of 60 days, after which the files will be deleted permanently to prevent unauthorized copying of protected trademarks."

Or, if you're a nice guy, the disclaimer could read, "Production files (including vector files) will be included with the sign package at no extra charge upon completion of the sign work" (or, "on full payment").

You could also add, "So-and-So Signs reserves the right to keep copies of art files for inclusion in our portfolio and/or reception wall display." This may head off another potential problem.

On your website? Hmm...might sound unnecessarily combative to have a self-protective disclaimer on the website. Your website should always sound "inviting."
But maybe, if you're going the "nice guy" route, have your website say, "Included with every job: your sign artwork in several file formats for your future needs!" Buy a bunch of cheap disks with your company name nicely printed on them.

Add the cost of the disks directly to your overhead, of course, like toilet paper.
..............................

Always use contracts. I am asked to sign one if I am only having my oil changed at Firestone. It's not about mistrust—it's about transparency. You can have a lawyer check your wording if you wish. Or even your accountant. He might be a nice guy and do it for free.

Have fun!
Brad

 

[psdesigns]

Did you pay Disney for all the designs of theirs that you're using and profiting off of?

Thats what I mean when I say you post publicly on a forum...and when someone googles your name, they'll find out everything you wrote. I wanted to see if I could find this ice rink in your gallery... I havent seen it yet, but I've seen quite a few Iron man / super hero montages, Star wars, deadpool, NFL, etc shirts / signs / decals that I'm pretty sure you dont have permission to print.... Printing them is one thing, putting them on your work page as samples is pretty ballsy though This guy has no legal standing against you, but all it takes is for him to get pissed and forward your site to one of the dozen companies you stole copyrights from, and then you'd have something to be scared about. And that would be a pretty open / shut case... Disneys very protective as well, so I'd be careful with what you post on your website.

IMO, he's more entitled to his artwork than you are to Disneys.

A lot of this stuff your pointing out was for personal use not for profit. Just examples of the quality we can print as well as the size. I am very aware of copyrights and what we can legally sell or not. No one says you can't make a banner for personal use especially of artwork that was created by another designer, not Disney but of Disney characters

 

[psdesigns]

On your Proposal, have a line item that states clearly who owns files.

For example, it could read, "All production files (including vector files) created by So-and-So Signs in the manufacture of sign work for [client], remain the property of the So-and-So Signs."
The disclaimer does not need to be complicated or written in legalese to have standing in court. And it certainly doesn't need to sound threatening. It just needs to be clear and businesslike. If the proposal is dated and signed by both parties, it can function as a contract.

If you want, you could add, "Production files may be purchased from So-and-So Signs for a sum of $__________, for a period of 60 days, after which the files will be deleted permanently to prevent unauthorized copying of protected trademarks."

Or, if you're a nice guy, the disclaimer could read, "Production files (including vector files) will be included with the sign package at no extra charge upon completion of the sign work" (or, "on full payment").

You could also add, "So-and-So Signs reserves the right to keep copies of art files for inclusion in our portfolio and/or reception wall display." This may head off another potential problem.

On your website? Hmm...might sound unnecessarily combative to have a self-protective disclaimer on the website. Your website should always sound "inviting."
But maybe, if you're going the "nice guy" route, have your website say, "Included with every job: your sign artwork in several file formats for your future needs!" Buy a bunch of cheap disks with your company name nicely printed on them.

Add the cost of the disks directly to your overhead, of course, like toilet paper.
..............................

Always use contracts. I am asked to sign one if I am only having my oil changed at Firestone. It's not about mistrust—it's about transparency. You can have a lawyer check your wording if you wish. Or even your accountant. He might be a nice guy and do it for free.

Have fun!
Brad

Thank you for this. This is something we for sure need to start including on the fine print of our invoices.

 

[ikarasu]

Legally you can not re create artwork for personal use if someone else made it. There is no "I didn't proffit of of it" clause.

Plus... Im pretty sure I saw dozens of a few things... but even still, a lot of it is advertising what you can do and using it as examples, so you're using it to promote your business, in which case you're using Disney characters and proffiting off them, whether it's directly or indirectly doesn't matter.

Not to dersil the thread, just pointing out it's kinda hippocritical on-top of a bad idea to piss off former customers when your business isn't fully above board! It's like all the drug users turning in their dealers when they're pissed off. Never bite the hand that feeds you.

 

[psdesigns]

Legally you can not re create artwork for personal use if someone else made it. There is no "I didn't proffit of of it" clause.

Plus... Im pretty sure I saw dozens of a few things... but even still, a lot of it is advertising what you can do and using it as examples, so you're using it to promote your business, in which case you're using Disney characters and proffiting off them, whether it's directly or indirectly doesn't matter.

Not to dersil the thread, just pointing out it's kinda hippocritical on-top of a bad idea to **** off former customers when your business isn't fully above board! It's like all the drug users turning in their dealers when they're pissed off. Never bite the hand that feeds you.

Legally you can with the permission of the artist lol. So there is that. I get your point thank you for your info.

 

[ikarasu]

Legally you can print a Mickey mouse and take a shit on it and throw it up on YouTube with the permission of the artist.

However Disney is the artist / rights holder - someone can't come along and create some fan art and then give you permission to print it, they didn't have the legal right to make fan art of it in the first place, it doesn't work that way.


But this thread isn't about copyright theft... So I'll leave it at that. I suggest you do a bit more research on the topic though, you can and will get in trouble from Disney - Disney is the most litigious and heavy handed with their copyrights... And they have lawyers just browsing companies making sure their work isn't being stolen. Odds are you will eventually be found out .. especially if a pissed of customer points them in your direction!


(Edit) when in doubt, legal beagle is never wrong!

Copyright Law: Making Personal Copies

Copyright law does not contain any caveat that allows unauthorized parties to make personal copies of copyrighted products. However, under the doctrine of "fair use," individuals may be permitted to make backup copies or archival copies of some materials as long as certain conditions are met.

legalbeagle.com

 

[psdesigns]

Legally you can print a Mickey mouse and take a **** on it and throw it up on YouTube with the permission of the artist.

However Disney is the artist / rights holder - someone can't come along and create some fan art and then give you permission to print it, they didn't have the legal right to make fan art of it in the first place, it doesn't work that way.


But this thread isn't about copyright theft... So I'll leave it at that. I suggest you do a bit more research on the topic though, you can and will get in trouble from Disney - Disney is the most litigious and heavy handed with their copyrights... And they have lawyers just browsing companies making sure their work isn't being stolen. Odds are you will eventually be found out .. especially if a pissed of customer points them in your direction!

Just because you pointed it out I deleted all the posts you referenced about my personal artwork just to show off what my printer can do. I guess I will need to tell my kids to also make sure they don't draw mickey mouse due to copyright issues with Disney, I would hate to post that up or print it out and get a lawyer calling me. So I think I'm " Safe from Disney's Wrath " at this point. But thank you again for the advice on copyright and how it works.

If you have any more to add to the original topic that would be wonderful. Like some disclaimer advice or anything else productive besides pointing out issues about people. That would truly be helpful.

 

[ikarasu]

Just because you pointed it out I deleted all the posts you referenced about my personal artwork just to show off what my printer can do. I guess I will need to tell my kids to also make sure they don't draw mickey mouse due to copyright issues with Disney, I would hate to post that up or print it out and get a lawyer calling me. So I think I'm " Safe from Disney's Wrath " at this point. But thank you again for the advice on copyright and how it works.

If you have any more to add to the original topic that would be wonderful. Like some disclaimer advice or anything else productive besides pointing out issues about people. That would truly be helpful.

Well, to be fair we're talking about how the guy feels like he's entitled to the artwork because he bought some signs off of you... but you feel like you own it and he's crazy for thinking how he does. so I'm just pointing out you feel like you should be able to use anyones copyrighted images for your own personal gain - IMO, he has a reason to feel the way he does...while you dont. And to top it off...you're making up excuses / outright lying what the prints were for. There are dozens of images that are outright copies of disneys IP, NFL's IP, none of which are fanart...

I mean, I see at least a dozen different copyrights...and thats just what you posted, I'm sure theres lots more. Mandolorian shirts, Iron man shirts, Deadpool shirts, Raiders coro signs, A couple steelers clothing prints, Marvel collages... etc, etc, etc. I don't think anyone here would defend your use of those...personal or not.

As for the topic... It's already been discussed pretty well. You dont have to send them the images legally, so if you don't want to...then dont. IMO, the guy bought 8k worth of signs off of you, holding his artwork hostage to make a few bucks isnt the best way to deal with customers. But theyre your customers, not mine so you can do as you please. You dont need to put a disclaimer on any proofs, the laws the law... unless you specifically said he gets the artwork, its not his to demand...especially a year later.


As for pointing out issues about people - Sorry, but you're giving everyone on here a bad name. Making a mistake and thinking you werent doing anything wrong is one thing... but dozens of times, you cant play dumb and say you werent trying to make a buck off of someone elses work, at least own up to it. All the other items I've seen in your gallery was some pretty nice work, take the issue pointing out as constructive criticisms, Your work is good enough on its own that you don't need to use other peoples IP to make money!

 

[Krissy Louderback]

Send them back the original logos they sent you along (or convert them all to a low resolution JPG) with JPG proofs of the signs you did for them. Now you aren't holding any artwork "Hostage" so what legal action could they have.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

All this here sounds like a story of sour grapes. Still trying to figure out what part of this was charity with and $8400 order at 50% margin.

 

[Gino]

I see..... you're feelings are hurt, you never gave them a chance and now you wanna hide behind some petty semantics. It appears, you feel, if you re-word what you did, to fit your needs, then the other guy is the bad guy. Your picking and choosing what you want to do, based upon your feelings would have no bearing in a court of law..... which you said you wanted to avoid due to time and money. I'm beginning to think, you wanna avoid court, because you know you'll lose. Quibbling over such a silly problem, goes to show what kinda business you actually run. If this is how you operate, ya better stay with online crap, cause you don't want these people knocking at your door. Someone will punish you and I don't think you'll like it.

Reputations take a long time to create and one stupid move, like this one, could wipe out all your hard work.

 

[GAC05]

Well, it was 'fun' while it lasted.

 

[garyroy]

The OP's rebuttal to all suggestions sounds like he's ready to represent himself as the attorney if needed.
I wish you the best.

 

[d fleming]

Send them the original files they sent to you. End of story. Oh, and tell them to go pound sand with their threats.

 

[2B]

ALL INVOICES HAVE
Any & All artwork / designs / layouts / edits /etc... are copyrighted and the property of XXXXX, including all associated DBAs

ALL EMAILS & PROOFS HAVE
This email and /or attachments may not be forwarded, printed, scanned, or altered in any way without the written permission of the original sender. Any & All artwork / designs / layouts / edits /etc... are copyrighted and the property of XXXXX, including all associated DBAs

CONFIDENTIALITY NOTICE:
The contents of this email message and any attachments and or links are intended solely for the addressee(s) and may contain confidential and/or privileged information and may be legally protected from disclosure. As the reader of the message to the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution, or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient of this message or their agent, or if this message has been addressed to you in error, please immediately alert the sender by reply email and then delete this message and any attachments and links. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any use, dissemination, copying, or storage of this message or its attachments and links is strictly prohibited.


WEBSITE SAYS
In accordance with the United States and International Law, XXXXXX (hereinafter referred to as "WE") hold the copyright on any and all design, sketch, artwork, idea or other creative work we have furnished unless other arrangements are agreed to in writing. With the purchase of a design, you are granted the right to use this design for websites, and services that are not currently offered by us or planned to be offered by us. We reserve the right to be the sole fabricator of any signage/signs, cards, labels, brochures, stationary, garments, all services that are currently offered as well as planning on being offered in the future we have designed and to display our work or images of our work for portfolio purposes. With the purchase of a “sign design”, the above rights are granted, but we will not specifically endeavor to create a design that meets all of the above application criteria. When a “logo design” has been purchased, we will endeavor to supply a design that meets all the above application criteria. All drawings, any design, sketch, artwork, or other creative work we have furnished are our intellectual property and may not be copied, reproduced or forwarded to others by any means without our express written permission. In cases where a logo, artwork, or other elements are provided by you to us, you warrant that the subject matter is not copyrighted by a third party or that you have been granted permission to use the copyrighted material on your sign. To support these warranties, you agree to indemnify us in any legal action connected with copyright infringement involving the work produced. Your sign design, mock-ups, any and all work done with XXXXXXX will remain the property of XXXXXXX including all associated DBAs which can only be used for reorders when requested from you or someone you have given authority to. This is to help ensure 100% control of your sign design and how many items are produced during the life of the design.

 

[2B]

Send them the original files they sent to you. End of story.

exactly,

this is our policy also

 

[Gino]

See, that's the thing. You have it ALL spelled out ahead of time. The end-user knows exactly what to expect. No guessing, no having to mince words, make up stories of how you're suffering being a small guy, no BS whatsoever.

That's professional. Should you wanna break your own rules and outline that you wanna donate portions, you do so, but then it's also a known factor. I didn't see or read any of that from the OP.


Over this past weekend, we took down some signs and put new ones up in their place. The company was very very specific how they wanted everything spaced and layed out. Sent them the proofs and they accepted them. They later made a slight change on some smaller signs and I sent them another set of proofs. They accepted them again. We finished up the signs and I get an e-mail this morning. You have the address on the main sign. We didn't want it on there. I said, I sent you several proofs and that sign was on there each and every time. You accepted it. No where on your spec sheets did it indicate the removal of something you already had on. Her comeback was, I thought that was the door sign. On the proof the door sign said 30" x 81" w/white vinyl. The front main sign said..... 72" x 96" 2-sided with black copy on a white background.. I'm sorry, but I don't know how you misread your own specs, but we did exactly as told. We can change it all around if you'd like and I can work up another quote for this, but I'll need your specs on how'd like this sign to look at this point.

You need to have everything in writing before moving forward. Never leave it up to a verbal. Always have it in writing. We were just talking about this very thing the other day in another thread.

 

[Greg Kelm]

Get their non-profit tax id and write it off as 40 hours at your shop rate. Send them a docusign and release the artwork.