I'm not about creating a "brand" per se. I'm about someone seeing the sign, sticker, or whatever and dialing my #. I'd seriously paint, or letter the most ridiculous thing in the world if I could have my number put on it. Now with my customers I of course will do my absolute best to promote their brand, ideas, etc.. It's just that I personally don't care as long as they can see my number.
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Gentle but Firm - Please?
- Thread starter Justin
- Start date
I'm not about creating a "brand" per se. I'm about someone seeing the sign, sticker, or whatever and dialing my #. I'd seriously paint, or letter the most ridiculous thing in the world if I could have my number put on it. Now with my customers I of course will do my absolute best to promote their brand, ideas, etc.. It's just that I personally don't care as long as they can see my number.
Circleville Signs
New Member
SignsonTime
New Member
So you can not promote your brand successfully
, what makes you think you will be successful doing it for others?
, what makes you think you will be successful doing it for others?
I guess what I really mean.. Is that why would it matter if they called me from seeing my sign that says Stickers N Signs, Justin's Signs, or DIXON Signs as long as they called. Heck they can call me Circleville Signs as long as they have my #. 
As long as they know anything signs/stickers/vinyl/whatever = my # then I am good. I'm not really trying to be the best at dimensionals, stickers, or whatever. I just want to be the best at everything(although I may not be. I will try.) This whole big branding thing just started these past 15 years, and before that noone afaik cared what they were called as long as they got the call.
I'm a pretty big believer in that you could be called DogPie Whatever, and as long as someone likes your work then they could careless what your called.
As long as they know anything signs/stickers/vinyl/whatever = my # then I am good. I'm not really trying to be the best at dimensionals, stickers, or whatever. I just want to be the best at everything(although I may not be. I will try.) This whole big branding thing just started these past 15 years, and before that noone afaik cared what they were called as long as they got the call.I'm a pretty big believer in that you could be called DogPie Whatever, and as long as someone likes your work then they could careless what your called.
Circleville Signs
New Member
I guess what I really mean.. Is that why would it matter if they called me from seeing my sign that says Stickers N Signs, Justin's Signs, or DIXON Signs as long as they called. Heck they can call me Circleville Signs as long as they have my #.
This is absolutely the WORST thought process when it comes to building a brand and marketing your business. Plain and simple. If you can't apply even the most BASIC of marketing and branding strategies to your OWN business, how can you POSSIBLY justify charging other people to do it for them? It makes absolutely NO sense.
Hell, earlier in this thread you were give multiple good ideas (and a couple of Rick's were GREAT ideas) and you weren't even willing to put a $50 investment into the MOST IMPORTANT PART OF YOUR IMAGE!!!!
I'm done beating my head against the wall. Good luck.
Thanks for your replies, and information. I know you mean well. I honestly have kinda thrown out the "brand" thing. I know the whole branding idea, and all that.. I guess I just really choose to ignore it now. I'm not saying I won't be following the brand guides, ideas, strategies for my customers, or atleast some to myself. I really don't think the branding stuff does very well for small businesses, and in my opinion it's more about being seen, doing good work, being honest, being ontime, etc..
Gino
Premium Subscriber
But don't you think if you're striving to be seen and do good work, you should display that in your own image ??
Call it what you like, branding, a logo, a sign or whatever..... it represents you and your work and if you don't come across as professional.... how will anyone take you seriously ?? You're only gonna attract lowballers and tire-kickers.
I've seen my share of used-car salesmen be totally punctual and sound completely honest with good supposedly products.......... and still not make a sale.
Ya gotta talk the talk and walk the walk if you wanna be serious about yourself...... ya can't fake it and then use a few cliche sayings and expect customers to be flocking to you..... bustin' down your doors.
Call it what you like, branding, a logo, a sign or whatever..... it represents you and your work and if you don't come across as professional.... how will anyone take you seriously ?? You're only gonna attract lowballers and tire-kickers.
I've seen my share of used-car salesmen be totally punctual and sound completely honest with good supposedly products.......... and still not make a sale.
Ya gotta talk the talk and walk the walk if you wanna be serious about yourself...... ya can't fake it and then use a few cliche sayings and expect customers to be flocking to you..... bustin' down your doors.
Yeah.. I'm not saying I won't change it.. I really just want to make it, see what it looks like, and who knows. It won't cost much in vinyl, and if I make it outta foam it will be good practice. I truly do like the black/pink logo Rick created. I may end up going with that. Heck I may end up having 10 different circles with various colors. We will see. I truly thank you all for your input..
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
The anti brand...
It's like when I read about sign guys who go to a meeting and refuse to wear a suit because they don't want to be seen as an executive kiss arse, or it's an artistic statement, maybe a quiet protest against the establishment, and my favorite - being rebellious. Never thinking, they may actually look very good in a well hung suit.
Even rebels have a brand...
Justin amuses me... it's best for him to say, "I like this and this is what I'm going to do." Because when he tries to explain... it's like the sign guy in his torn up jeans, white tee, with smokes folded in his sleeve, flip flops with no set of plans, a pad of paper and a nubby pencil with a broken lead and no eraser at a 10 million dollar signage kick off meeting... the sign guy may be able to pull it off, but there is not going to be a whole lot of confidence in him being able to.
Now before Justin says I'm just sore because he did not choose my logo.. I didn't do it for him, I did it for me. Out of the 100+ logos I have designed for members of various forums, only a few have taken my advice or the design... I have no preference if they do or not, but it would be nice if they did learn something... what I learned for the last exchange is when Justin comments on logo design as he has in the past, his opinions are not going to hold much weight. He should keep commenting on them, but maybe he should develop a wider view of the subject... Like I said before, I can appreciate "I like this and this is what I'm going to do."... I can appreciate the opinion that small business may not need "branding". But we are in the business of making things pretty (and getting paid for it) So having some appreciation for design, branding and all the other catch phrases and punchlines may help him get agency and state work.
It's like when I read about sign guys who go to a meeting and refuse to wear a suit because they don't want to be seen as an executive kiss arse, or it's an artistic statement, maybe a quiet protest against the establishment, and my favorite - being rebellious. Never thinking, they may actually look very good in a well hung suit.
Even rebels have a brand...
Justin amuses me... it's best for him to say, "I like this and this is what I'm going to do." Because when he tries to explain... it's like the sign guy in his torn up jeans, white tee, with smokes folded in his sleeve, flip flops with no set of plans, a pad of paper and a nubby pencil with a broken lead and no eraser at a 10 million dollar signage kick off meeting... the sign guy may be able to pull it off, but there is not going to be a whole lot of confidence in him being able to.
Now before Justin says I'm just sore because he did not choose my logo.. I didn't do it for him, I did it for me. Out of the 100+ logos I have designed for members of various forums, only a few have taken my advice or the design... I have no preference if they do or not, but it would be nice if they did learn something... what I learned for the last exchange is when Justin comments on logo design as he has in the past, his opinions are not going to hold much weight. He should keep commenting on them, but maybe he should develop a wider view of the subject... Like I said before, I can appreciate "I like this and this is what I'm going to do."... I can appreciate the opinion that small business may not need "branding". But we are in the business of making things pretty (and getting paid for it) So having some appreciation for design, branding and all the other catch phrases and punchlines may help him get agency and state work.
Rick & Others,
I really like your logo. I should mention I am a pretty young guy just starting out, and I do admit I have a lot to learn. I do have knowledge of business from my father, and him owning his own business. I've just recently had my first few customers. I want to go with the logo you created for yourself, for me, or whatever. I just don't know how good it'd look in vinyl. I'm still probably going to use the logo idea you created, but change it some. I'm not really too far into branding because honestly around here it's not a thing.
I probably will do some branding, but I honestly could careless if someone sees Sticker N Signs, DIXON's Signs, or whatever. As I progress along in this industry I probably will start to deviate toward a certain category I like, but rightnow I want to learn, experiment, and try everything! I don't have enough experience in this industry to know whether I love doing dimensionals, stickers, or whatever. I may not be the greatest designer, but I am pretty dang good, IMO. I'm willing to learn, and not taking anything for granted.
Rick & Others - I **DO** want your advice. You guys been in this industry longer than I, have more experience, and I likely can learn TONS from you guys. Don't kill me for trying my way, but don't give up helping me either.
I really like your logo. I should mention I am a pretty young guy just starting out, and I do admit I have a lot to learn. I do have knowledge of business from my father, and him owning his own business. I've just recently had my first few customers. I want to go with the logo you created for yourself, for me, or whatever. I just don't know how good it'd look in vinyl. I'm still probably going to use the logo idea you created, but change it some. I'm not really too far into branding because honestly around here it's not a thing.
I probably will do some branding, but I honestly could careless if someone sees Sticker N Signs, DIXON's Signs, or whatever. As I progress along in this industry I probably will start to deviate toward a certain category I like, but rightnow I want to learn, experiment, and try everything! I don't have enough experience in this industry to know whether I love doing dimensionals, stickers, or whatever. I may not be the greatest designer, but I am pretty dang good, IMO. I'm willing to learn, and not taking anything for granted.
Rick & Others - I **DO** want your advice. You guys been in this industry longer than I, have more experience, and I likely can learn TONS from you guys. Don't kill me for trying my way, but don't give up helping me either.
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Then stop making generalizations.. generalizations are creative and mental killers. They may show you don't know the subject your commenting on. Once you generalize, you close the door on an opinion, the ability to make a sound opinion and an avenue to get inspiration from...
Let's take the idea that "branding" is a term that is only popularized 15 years ago is coming from where? Your experience? I was just searching for a book in my library from 1982 by David E. Carter called "Designing Corp ID for Small Business" where the basic principles of corporate branding were being used in small business and he explained it very well... It just dawned on me that Dan Antonelli's books are like his book in modern form but Dan's is easier to read and way easier on the eyes. This was 30 years ago... I have another book by him that is the bible of corporate branding that is still followed today... and he wrote that book in 1976.
The second a person forms an opinion about the way you do business, your work, or your talents, you are branded. It does not have to be the logo that does it. But a logo can say something about you in your absence. My opinion is, I want the best representative of my values, talents and work to speak for me when I'm not there.
If you are young and new, keep your mind open... then when your Old Paints age, you can start getting crabby about it.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Exactly-O........ what Rick is saying.
Your approach is as if you are in on each and every deal or customer that walks through your door. Well, sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
There's an old saying.... A business without a good sign is a sign of no business. Well, there's another one...... A sign is a 'Silent Salesman'. You're there.... 8 maybe 10 or 12 hours a day and while you're there, the customers and potential customers can come in and talk to you about anything and everything and you can convince them of all your business standards and so on.
While you're not there early in the morning, late at night, weekends and holidays.... that little or big sign you put out proudly for all to see is the only thing telling people who you are and what you do. Sure, it doesn't matter what font you chose or what colors you used or even if the kerning or spacing is a little off, but that's when the passerby's subliminal kicks in and says..... this place doesn't even care enough about their own image..... how will they ever care about mine ?? However.... every cheap-a$$ potential client will say.... this place looks cheap enough, I'll try them tomorrow. It's too late to change the minds of someone that already has you pegged for being cheap and passes on quality.
You might save a sale here and there, but you'll be struggling up hill continuously until you either change your reputation, image or methods.
You might be young... and you might be a fast learner, but you're sporting poor decisions and lousy business habits with your present course. You've been given some excellent FREE information and personal guidance and you're saying.... maybe I'll consider it.
Please, do as you see fit and run your business the way you want, but please try not to insult people of this community with your foolish notions that you alone can do it and do it in a fashion which is totally bassackwards.
Your approach is as if you are in on each and every deal or customer that walks through your door. Well, sorry, but it doesn't work that way.
There's an old saying.... A business without a good sign is a sign of no business. Well, there's another one...... A sign is a 'Silent Salesman'. You're there.... 8 maybe 10 or 12 hours a day and while you're there, the customers and potential customers can come in and talk to you about anything and everything and you can convince them of all your business standards and so on.
While you're not there early in the morning, late at night, weekends and holidays.... that little or big sign you put out proudly for all to see is the only thing telling people who you are and what you do. Sure, it doesn't matter what font you chose or what colors you used or even if the kerning or spacing is a little off, but that's when the passerby's subliminal kicks in and says..... this place doesn't even care enough about their own image..... how will they ever care about mine ?? However.... every cheap-a$$ potential client will say.... this place looks cheap enough, I'll try them tomorrow. It's too late to change the minds of someone that already has you pegged for being cheap and passes on quality.
You might save a sale here and there, but you'll be struggling up hill continuously until you either change your reputation, image or methods.
You might be young... and you might be a fast learner, but you're sporting poor decisions and lousy business habits with your present course. You've been given some excellent FREE information and personal guidance and you're saying.... maybe I'll consider it.
Please, do as you see fit and run your business the way you want, but please try not to insult people of this community with your foolish notions that you alone can do it and do it in a fashion which is totally bassackwards.
I'm going to sleep on it. I'm going to keep the red/blue/yellow/white sign/logo(imo), and probably recreate something similar to Rick's black/pink one tonight.. It's probably going to be very similar, except blue/red.
The idea I like with using the circle logo, and particularly a more simple one with space at the top is that during Christmas, and other holidays I figure I could put a santa hat ontop, birthday hat, or other fun little things ever so often.
I'll post new redo - late tonight - and this will be the branding logo+sign. I still will have my other red/yellow/blue just as a sample of work, and be proud of both. I'll slowly phase out the stickers n signs as I get better/build me a real sign...
The idea I like with using the circle logo, and particularly a more simple one with space at the top is that during Christmas, and other holidays I figure I could put a santa hat ontop, birthday hat, or other fun little things ever so often.
I'll post new redo - late tonight - and this will be the branding logo+sign. I still will have my other red/yellow/blue just as a sample of work, and be proud of both. I'll slowly phase out the stickers n signs as I get better/build me a real sign...
Gino
Premium Subscriber
Does anybody realize that this thread has gone over 50 posts without anyone calling anyone down over a title.... Gentle, but firm, but honestly I need help and please tell what your reasons are............ ??
This OP has asked for critique, has gotten it from so many professionals and still doesn't want to listen. There's stubbornness and then there's brutalization.
I would just like to go on record stating this guy might not be aware of his shortcomings, but this is a very good thread for anyone willing to learn or at least experiment with ideas and utilize them to your advantage. This thread has a lot to pull from if you are willing to look past some of the comments expressed by the OP. The help in this thread is uplifting and the explanations are great.
So, other than the OP, keep this thread alive so others may learn.
This OP has asked for critique, has gotten it from so many professionals and still doesn't want to listen. There's stubbornness and then there's brutalization.
I would just like to go on record stating this guy might not be aware of his shortcomings, but this is a very good thread for anyone willing to learn or at least experiment with ideas and utilize them to your advantage. This thread has a lot to pull from if you are willing to look past some of the comments expressed by the OP. The help in this thread is uplifting and the explanations are great.
So, other than the OP, keep this thread alive so others may learn.
HulkSmash
New Member
Yeah, I caught that a while ago..
What a thing, huh? It's not too often you see threads on here where people don't get ragged on, cursed at, or told they are ruining the sigh industry. I'd like to keep it that way. I do, have, and will continue to listen to veterans of this industry, and those with experience. I love reading various ideas, thoughts, and problem solving together.
I may not be aware of my shortcomings. I want to be aware though. I just want to be told constructively, and just because I don't want to follow the grain I, and others shouldn't be squashed, and thrown away. I'm sure most of you don't always do the typical thing, or the right thing, and just want to experiment, and maybe recant to go back, and do the typical once you realize it's typical because everyone does it, because it works.
I'm in the process of recreating with what I like. I appreciate each one of you helping me, and I will continue to do so. I suppose you guys can squash me, but don't throw me in the can, or flush me down the drain, yet. =)
Rick
Certified Enneadecagon Designer
Umm, I doubt it... with the weirdos I have met, most weirdos are clueless about being weird. Being weird is not about the act, you just can't help but be weird. Being weird is not part of the design process.
I eat cow head, brains, intestines, and pork colon, as well as thai food, burgers, hot dogs, sushi and Indian food, it does not make me weird, it makes me culinarily diverse.
It's like say you are a rebel... you don't say you are, thats lame... you just are. You are not a rebel, you just don't know any better and dress it up with labels like weird and rebelious. If you would have stuck with: "well, I like it and that's the way it's going to be..." thats a better explanation than your other reasons.