Gotta love "design firms"

[Kottwitz-Graphics]

Your gotta love these so called design firms... I am working on a sign for a local restaurant, and they send me the design package.... what a load of .... well you know.

First thing I notice is the colors are all cmyk... and to make it worse, none of them even come close to pms colors, much less a valid vinyl color. I found something close, but I fore warned my customer. Now as I sit here waiting for the plotter to finish tearing up this jumbled mess of lines, so I can try something else, I wonder how these people let these know it alls get away with it.

 

[BIG EASY DOES IT]

Well that's no fun we don't get to see anything. My baby sister can throw something together in illy and if she had a group of people helping her we could call them a design firm also.

 

[Rick]

Your gotta love these so called design firms... I am working on a sign for a local restaurant, and they send me the design package.... what a load of .... well you know.

First thing I notice is the colors are all cmyk... and to make it worse, none of them even come close to pms colors, much less a valid vinyl color. I found something close, but I fore warned my customer. Now as I sit here waiting for the plotter to finish tearing up this jumbled mess of lines, so I can try something else, I wonder how these people let these know it alls get away with it.

Though I get your frustration, I used to be the production guy who had to fix these things... I called it job security. It common for us to get CMYK values from other design firms and always ask for a PMS color match. Maybe it's because the ai/corel to the smallest .pdf file messes it up. We only design, so I guess that makes us a design firm, but we always include the color call-out in case that happens, but we always supply our vendor with the construction documents with specifications and color... if you don;t get that, you end up being a hero to your client if you are able to fix it.

I have some great stories about sign/print/production shops screwing up our work but I guess I should start my own thread...

 

[TimToad]

Though I get your frustration, I used to be the production guy who had to fix these things... I called it job security. It common for us to get CMYK values from other design firms and always ask for a PMS color match. Maybe it's because the ai/corel to the smallest .pdf file messes it up. We only design, so I guess that makes us a design firm, but we always include the color call-out in case that happens, but we always supply our vendor with the construction documents with specifications and color... if you don;t get that, you end up being a hero to your client if you are able to fix it.

I have some great stories about sign/print/production shops screwing up our work but I guess I should start my own thread...

Am I the only signmaker/graphic designer here that is a little troubled by the frequent negativity directed at graphic designers?

As a young signmaker, artist and creative person honing my skills, I aspired to be considered even in the same general industry as some of the graphic design greats helping to craft how the public looks at advertising, typography, color, logo design, branding, package design, etc.

If you go through your average book store there are shelves loaded with the work of, theory of, practice of, display of great graphic design which impacts how our world visually communicates with each other in every imaginable way. Each and every one of us benefits from the work of graphic designers who make our roads safer and easier to navigate, our trips through stores, museums, hospitals, sporting events, etc. quicker and more logical.

The list is endless, yet some graphic designer gives a "signpainter" a little curve ball challenge to work through and its "those rotten graphic designers". Our former "old school" signpainter employee was the same way. We have a young man in our employ now with a degree in graphic design and he designs circles around a 40 year veteran that didn't fit in here anymore as the company evolves with the times and our efforts.

Frankly, from what I've seen of the average signmaker out there from a design standpoint, most of us could use some graphic design courses and mentoring.

Most of us display huge, well earned respect to Rick, Dan Antonelli, Joe Diaz and many others who have bridged the divide between signmaker and graphic designer. Would any of you be rolling your eyes and grimacing if Dan's studio asked you to collaborate on a project because of a special skill you possessed?

We go out of our way to reach out to local graphic designers because the work they are doing and hopefully send our way is fresh, interesting and reflects the advances being made in all aspects of visual communications .

 

[TXFB.INS]

I've seen good and bad from both the design side and the production side.

case in point design firm sent me a file to make for an interior office, arrived in EPS, opened up fine, scaled to the area after a site evaluation.
Sent back to the design firm the pre-flight proof at scale. they replied back "why did you change the design" this goes on back and forth, they keep sending PNG and PDF files showing what the design should look like.
Finally get tired of the back and forth. Rip apart the file, buried deep in one of the layers was a raster image and when that overall design was exported as an EPS it would change the design. they had no idea and until it was pointed out to them they would not have known the there was a hidden raster image since they were all looking at a PNG, PDF or like file type.

sent a file to a paper printer for pamphlets to be printed, provided exact RGB and PMS color codes that the printing needed to match.
get the pamphlets back and they are muted and different from the other products already produced.
called them up to see what was going on, they said everything checked out fine on there end and again more back and forth. finally it came to light that they were unaware that you have cross reference a CMYK color to RGB or PMS and can't rely on the machine to do the work for you.

 

[Rick]

I might as well mention, since it is a rant thread....

This past week I got:

A blade sign designed by an environmental design firm.
-- Sent as a .pdf but the whole page was a .jpg
-- None of the measurements supplied, just the scale
-- No color call outs
-- The design mentioned "changeable" panel that slid through the frame... very clumsy
-- Could not get a response so had to rebuild the file and hope later to get the color and logo in vector

--------------------

A monument sign sent from an in-house designer for an apartment management company.
-- None of the copy was centered
-- No Color call outs
-- Ugly as sin
-- None of the measurements supplied, no scale, just elevation and side view with a scale guy
-- The designer did not look at the sign code so the placement is in question, the size had to be modified
-- The letters are dimensional but they don't say how deep they are
-- Sent an email and got the colors, but they are missing one

--------------------

Got a massive job to bid, the design was by a planning firm and the standard for that hospital.
-- 100 pages of location plans, 300+ pages of specifications, 400+ pages of design, a lengthy qualification process... no sign count... weeks of trying to figure out that package. They could have made it easier to bid on with a simple excel file while they were making the location plans
-- My client ended up passing on the job... worth about 1,000,000 bucks

--------------------

Bidding on an apartment design where the architect did basic signage call outs
-- We went to a few competing apartments they suggested where the signage was very high end before we went to the kick of meeting
-- None of the signs designed by the architect were even close to the same as the competing apartments and their original budget was way to low
-- We told them to triple the budget and sent them a proposal for a design fee... waiting to hear back.

--------------------

We deal with these things all the time, but it's what makes our knowledge valuable....
(thought the way it looks, I get paid for cleaning people's cr@p)

 

[Marlene]

Am I the only signmaker/graphic designer here that is a little troubled by the frequent negativity directed at graphic designers?

As a young signmaker, artist and creative person honing my skills, I aspired to be considered even in the same general industry as some of the graphic design greats helping to craft how the public looks at advertising, typography, color, logo design, branding, package design, etc.

If you go through your average book store there are shelves loaded with the work of, theory of, practice of, display of great graphic design which impacts how our world visually communicates with each other in every imaginable way. Each and every one of us benefits from the work of graphic designers who make our roads safer and easier to navigate, our trips through stores, museums, hospitals, sporting events, etc. quicker and more logical.

The list is endless, yet some graphic designer gives a "signpainter" a little curve ball challenge to work through and its "those rotten graphic designers". Our former "old school" signpainter employee was the same way. We have a young man in our employ now with a degree in graphic design and he designs circles around a 40 year veteran that didn't fit in here anymore as the company evolves with the times and our efforts.

Frankly, from what I've seen of the average signmaker out there from a design standpoint, most of us could use some graphic design courses and mentoring.

Most of us display huge, well earned respect to Rick, Dan Antonelli, Joe Diaz and many others who have bridged the divide between signmaker and graphic designer. Would any of you be rolling your eyes and grimacing if Dan's studio asked you to collaborate on a project because of a special skill you possessed?

We go out of our way to reach out to local graphic designers because the work they are doing and hopefully send our way is fresh, interesting and reflects the advances being made in all aspects of visual communications .

you are missing the point. these people collect a check from the customer and sell them a design package taht can be taken out into the world for all their needs. the package is not that at all. it has to be reworked and the customer gets charged for that. the files are a mess and yes we an fix them but not for free. we wave an art charge if you provide production ready files. some designers do and can provide the customer with a good file but most can't. they are selling a service they can't provide and that is why we complain about them, plain and simple

 

[WildWestDesigns]

you are missing the point. these people collect a check from the customer and sell them a design package taht can be taken out into the world for all their needs. the package is not that at all. it has to be reworked and the customer gets charged for that. the files are a mess and yes we an fix them but not for free. we wave an art charge if you provide production ready files. some designers do and can provide the customer with a good file but most can't. they are selling a service they can't provide and that is why we complain about them, plain and simple

I deal with this a lot. Even if the vector file (or it can be a raster file, but for this discussion vector file) is wonderfully setup, everything has been done to it for it be sent out into the world, I still might not be able to use it "as is", because of some limitation (typically size of letters, doesn't matter how simple it as, it's more about size) and that urks the customer to no end. I have to tell them that in order for me to use that copy, I have to enlarge it which throws off the layout. If I do it "as is", it'll look really bad.

Next thing I know, they have it done somewhere else, but they do it exactly "as is" and it really looks bad. Can't tell them that though, they would think I'm just spewing bile, because I didn't get the job.

And it's because that design firm doesn't really know about physical production concerns and it seems to be all about web/print (in my experience, I'm in no way implying that's the case with them all). I had to do an LC that was almost 6" wide, because the customer wanted it exactly "as is". Almost in the arm pit (not good for a lot of reasons). Came back later and said "do what you do to make it fit in regular 4 x 4 hoop" (not many do that though).

Now, design firms aren't all to blame. Plenty of people in my industry that don't know quality and will do "as is" without educating the customer why it will or won't work to take on the blame. And there are a lot of them.

 

[GoodPeopleFlags]

Don't blame graphic designers for not knowing how things need to be set up for sign production. Why/how would they know? Output for web, paper print, fabric print, screen print, sign print, etc. are all set up differently. You can't expect graphic designers to set things up exactly how you need them. Yes, the back-and-forth with them can be frustrating but that's part of the job.

 

[Kwiksigns]

when you get cmyk and wan't a pantone... google "cmyk to pantone" quite a few helpful little tools there

 

[qmr55]

Don't blame graphic designers for not knowing how things need to be set up for sign production. Why/how would they know? Output for web, paper print, fabric print, screen print, sign print, etc. are all set up differently. You can't expect graphic designers to set things up exactly how you need them. Yes, the back-and-forth with them can be frustrating but that's part of the job.

THIS. Exactly. Graphic designers are NOT production monkeys. How would you expect them to know how to setup a file for a print cut job? Setup a file for a sandblasted or routed sign? Setup file for YOUR specialty that you claim you are the professional for? Why should they have to do their job and your job?

Let's be real here. Some of you, I won't name any names, are too lazy to do what you're suppose to do and expect someone else to do your job. Get over it.

 

[WildWestDesigns]

Don't blame graphic designers for not knowing how things need to be set up for sign production. Why/how would they know? Output for web, paper print, fabric print, screen print, sign print, etc. are all set up differently. You can't expect graphic designers to set things up exactly how you need them. Yes, the back-and-forth with them can be frustrating but that's part of the job.

I had one customer tell me that the design company that they hired told them to use their file "as is" no exceptions. Once a company does that, in my mind, they are expected to possess that knowledge.

Or at the very least, tell their customer to expect changes depending on what they are trying to do.

You have to understand, even if the file is setup correctly (fonts converted to outline/curves (which should be common knowledge for every designer and yet I get that error message more then I would like)), it still may not work "as is". And I'm not dependent on the wireframe of a design with the exception of fonts being outlined if it's a vector file (which I think a lot of people here are).

If I were to setup some files "as is" which I can do (most of the time it isn't a setup limitation, but an actual at the machine limitation), the quality will be junk. Then it looks like I don't know what I'm doing, even if I warned them of the issue. Not many people like to hear about this or that change (especially if design wise, it looks like simple elements (and in quite a few instances they are)). Some give graphic designs a pass on not possessing (or shouldn't have to possess) knowledge of production concerns and yet when the expert of that production type says something won't work well and suggests changes, they are looked at as the incompetent ones (both with the designers and the customers as well). Something about that just doesn't sit right with me. I don't make these suggestions because I like to or I want to change the aesthetic, I make these changes because I like to put out quality product. You have to understand that some of this changes, in order to have a quality output, are making secondary copy primary copy due to size changes. The dynamics of the design real estate changes. So in some instances, we are talking about considerable aesthetic changes. It's either junk output, but have everything "as is", or make some changes for a quality output.

Now again, this isn't everyone. Typically designers that also do some form of production understand this, very few of the firms that all they do is design work, in my experience, have a concept of this. Those firms that do have a concept of this, also tend to have various designs that still manage to fit the brand aesthetic, but have specific uses for different production media, so I still don't see how all firms can't possess even an inkling of this. If nothing else, tell your customer that there may or may not be changes depending on what they are trying to do.

 

[TimToad]

you are missing the point. these people collect a check from the customer and sell them a design package taht can be taken out into the world for all their needs. the package is not that at all. it has to be reworked and the customer gets charged for that. the files are a mess and yes we an fix them but not for free. we wave an art charge if you provide production ready files. some designers do and can provide the customer with a good file but most can't. they are selling a service they can't provide and that is why we complain about them, plain and simple

I don't agree. Your casting a pretty wide net in your generalizations about a field that is massive and as varied as any profession.

The point is that we are all in the same fraternity of creative visual communicators and unless some signmakers drop the hostility, envy? and resistance to working through issues with folks feeding them work, some designers will keep condescending to signmakers and not develop the necessary trust and mutual respect to elevate the partnerships we all should be seeking out.

"these people" isn't that a bit of a stereotype that most of us have learned to avoid for certain races of people, but somehow its ok to lump all graphic designers together with?

I think the world of graphic design is as varied in experience, competency, talent, technical prowess, etc. as is the sign industry.

Did you catch any of the Cubs/Pirates game last night? I worked at an environmental graphic design firm for two years with a graphic designer who was on the team that designed and oversaw the construction of ALL the signage at that stadium.

At the firm we worked together at which has won awards in annual competitions from HOW, AIGA, ID, etc. we detailed things down to the last bolt or weld and supplied drawing sets that were checked by multiple people before they hit the desk of a sign company's estimator. We regularly worked on projects that eventually yielded 6 and 7 figure signage packages. I was hired specifically to add a long time signmaker's skills and knowledge about how to design things to make them easier to build, install and be more durable.

Should a studio of that caliber be lumped in with people that call themselves graphic designers, but may just be a couple of kids fresh out of school who couldn't find jobs in an established studio but manage to get some projects thrown their way that end up in the laps of sign companies?

 

[PRS Bryan]

The fact is that everyone that does not know as much as myself is obviously an idiot.

Be careful with your expectations, if every one could meet your professional expectations there would be no need for you.

 

[Gino]

Here we go with the 'Race' card, again.



Ya either do it, or ya don't.

Nothing wrong with the thread or who it's aimed towards. It happens on both sides of the fence. Ya do it and get on with your life. If ya don't like it, just tell the customer NO, I won't do it and get on with your life. You know when someone asks you how's your day going..... they really don't expect a speech in return stroking your ego or someone else's. It's a rhetorical friendly question. That's all. Get over yourselves already...... sheesh !!

 

[nikdoobs]

 

[GaSouthpaw]

My .02:
If you're a designer and you design signage for a customer, then you absolutely need to know how those signs are made and provide your files to the contractor/sign shop accordingly.

Ditto designs for that are supposedly specifically for screen printing; wide format printing; engraving; CNC; or a multitude of other purposes.

If a designer is ignorant of the requirements of production in regards to the end use of their "specialty" design- be it a sign or a tee shirt- then they need to do the leg work to find out what those requirements are.

I'm not saying their aren't times when the sign shop isn't expected to do some leg work in this regard- I just think there has to be some give and take on both sides.

 

[peavey123]

The Pantone colour gamut is quite narrow, so are your options vinyl colour charts. Could that be why there is no pantone colour in the package?

and regarding the cutting mess, I know for a fact that a lot of designers who don't have experience in the sign industry wouldn't even think about setting up a file ready to cut. You can be a killer designer and not necessarily know the ins and outs having a file set-up for cutting. As a designer, I understand that completely. There are many areas of design that you can exclusively focus on if you wish. It's not smart, but it could happen.

 

[J Hill Designs]

designers not knowing how to set up a file for cutting not-withstanding, I find myself sitting here wondering why someone 'disliked' the OP without even offering input into the thread.

Hi asuma. what do you dislike about it?

 

[MISPRINT]

Interesting thoughts on both sides of this thread. I started as a designer and moved into print and now install (wraps). I get the complaints as well as the folks saying not every designer will know all the specifics. I generally ask my clients what they intend to use my files for when creating them, and try my best to create a seamless experience. I realize not everyone does this. I can't tell you how many times I have gotten a "design file" that is simply a low quality jpeg. It would be nice for the customer to provide me the correct files all the time, but I budget time in because more often than not, it will not happen. As Gino said, you deal with it and move on.