Help determining size of pan face

[Doyle]

We need to replace some rather large pan faces for this center pole mounted cabinet. The sign is a little larger/higher than we typically work on, so we are going to produce some new faces for the customer and hopefully sub the installation to another shop. I was able to get a bucket truck on site today to get some measurements. The cabinet is 132" wide (11 feet) by 85" high and 12" deep.

We have worked on this type of cabinet before, where the retainers are attached around the face with aluminum angle pieces that hold the retainers together like a picture frame, which then sits inside the cabinet and secured with screws through the front side of the retainers/cabinet. Sorry, not exactly sure what you would call this type of cabinet.

Due to the sign being so large and rather high off the ground (top of sign is approximately 20' from ground), I was not able to fully disassemble the sign to get proper measurements of the faces. The OUTSIDE of the cabinet is exactly 132" x 85", the retainers are 2" wide, and flange of the faces is approximately 2.5". I'm wondering if anyone can tell me exactly what the dimensions of the sign face should be? At this point, I would be guessing the faces are 130-131" wide by 84" high. Wondering if there is anyone that is familiar with this type of cabinet that could tell me what the size of the faces should be? I am avoiding completely disassembling this sign if possible.

Any advice or assistance would be appreciated, thanks in advance!

 

[visual800]

Pretty general rule we use is come down bout 3" all the way around for a solid background and keep lettering at bout 6" off all edges

 

[Doyle]

Pretty general rule we use is come down bout 3" all the way around for a solid background and keep lettering at bout 6" off all edges

I'm actually referring to the size of the pan face itself. The measurements that I took are of the outside of the cabinet and not of the sign face. Just trying to see if there is a way to determine the size of the faces from these measurements. Thanks!

 

[OldPaint]

what your asking for............is NOT POSSIBLE!!!! and would be really dumb to make any GUESS at the pan face size. you do know if you order them....THEY DONT TAKE EM BACK if they dont fit????? your going to need to get one of the ends off the sign box.......get an INSIDE HIGHT MEASUREMENT.... as for the length of the sign.........then you can take the same off the length the box.....so you can slide the pan face in and it wont be to short OR TO LONG...

 

[Moze]

It's actually pretty simple.

Hopefully you got the visible opening. If so add a couple of inches to the V.O. (all sides) and have the installers trim down to match the existing faces on site. With a jigsaw they can cut each face down in about 5 minutes or so. It will take less time doing it that way then it will for you to go through the trouble of taking the cabinet apart to get dimensions.

 

[FS-Keith]

when doing a survey on a cabinet sign always get three measurments
Visual opening
Cut size
Cabinet size

That looks like a signtech extrusion and is an absolute nightmare to work with, especially at that size. Be sure to have two trucks on that job

 

[graphicwarning]

It's actually pretty simple.

Hopefully you got the visible opening. If so add a couple of inches to the V.O. (all sides) and have the installers trim down to match the existing faces on site. With a jigsaw they can cut each face down in about 5 minutes or so. It will take less time doing it that way then it will for you to go through the trouble of taking the cabinet apart to get dimensions.

+1

This is the easiest way... where I worked previously... if we weren't certain we had the proper dimensions, we added a few extra inches to the face and instructed the installer to trim on site. Never was an issue.

 

[Cross Signs]

Can you measure the existing face? And you might really want two trucks to install this.

 

[Doyle]

I would have liked to measure the face, but as you can see in the photos, getting to the face is not as simple as removing a piece of the retainer. The retainer attaches around the face, then is mounted into the cabinet, so the face of the cabinet and the retainers are flush (retainer sits inside cabinet 1/4" or so). Getting access to the face requires prying the face out of the cabinet with the retainers, which is something I did not want to attempt by myself in a bucket.

I think I will take the visible opening of 80.75" x 127.75" and add 2" all the way around as suggested above. I do not plan to install these faces myself, as I'm sure it would require 2 trucks. The faces are much larger than I comfortable with installing, and they are 20' off the ground.....

Thanks for all of the help!

 

[phototec]

I can't believe you would ask such a question, what if someone gives you a size, you have the faces made and they are to small, who do you blame?

You are responsible to get up there and take accurate measurements or farm out the job to professional who can do it right.

If you can't even get up there NOW to take the dimensions, how the heck are you going to install new faces?

Making it larger is a good idea, but I don't like doing things like cutting down faces in the field, when I had to trim down a face, because it was not made to the correct size by my fabricator, I did the trimming in my shop, it makes a big mess and I would NOT want to do that in front of my customer.

 

[OldPaint]

seems to me your just the "sign broker"..........just lookin to make a buck on someone elses work. not concerned as to details!!!

 

[J Hill Designs]

+3 oversize the pan flange and cut down on-site -- SOP pretty much

edit: just make sure the pan fits inside the VO

 

[signcrafters london]

+4

 

[Doyle]

seems to me your just the "sign broker"..........just lookin to make a buck on someone elses work. not concerned as to details!!!

It's comments like this which keep me from posting anything on Signs101..... I'm not a freakin "broker", I've been in the business for a long time (our business is 18 years old this year) and I've been a member here since 2006, just asking for a little advice and now I'm a "hack" or a "broker" and shouldn't be in the sign business...... I will figure something out, even though you claim it is IMPOSSIBLE.

Thanks to the others for your input, I do appreciate it.

 

[Doyle]

I can't believe you would ask such a question, what if someone gives you a size, you have the faces made and they are to small, who do you blame?

You are responsible to get up there and take accurate measurements or farm out the job to professional who can do it right.

If you can't even get up there NOW to take the dimensions, how the heck are you going to install new faces?

Making it larger is a good idea, but I don't like doing things like cutting down faces in the field, when I had to trim down a face, because it was not made to the correct size by my fabricator, I did the trimming in my shop, it makes a big mess and I would NOT want to do that in front of my customer.

If you would have read my post, you would know that I am NOT INSTALLING THESE FACES. I'm fairly confident that if I talk to the manufacturer of this cabinet, they can certainly tell me exactly what size to make the faces. Trust me, I'm not ordering $2000 custom pan faces without being confident they will fit properly.

 

[ddubia]

Often, when we can't get an accurate measurement of the actual face for one reason or another we tell our vendor the overall cabinet size and they'll know the face measurement from that. A good vendor will be able to help out with things like this. Explain to them the type of retainer you're dealing with and they can probably name it. In all likelihood they won't guarantee the size they come up with will be right. That's on you. But I'd bet it will be. If it makes you nervous tell them to make it a bit oversize and then when you get the retainers off you can cut it to fit.


I see no problem in cutting the face on site if you need to so that. We have done it plenty of times when needed. It's not always being pretty when your doing the job. It's about doing a safe install that looks top-notch when you're finished. We've done quite a few KFC signs and their vendor, not ours, who has the contract for making their faces never made a face the right size in their life. We've had to cut plenty of them. One time they sent us a pan face that was 7" too long and the rep on the phone couldn't understand why we couldn't just cut 7" off of it.

If you're not going to install it be sure to warn the installer you hire that it may need cut. That way they don't walk into any surprises.

 

[Billct2]

Asking the extrusion manufacturer the face size based on the outside dimensions seems like a good start.
But I probably still add a couple inches and trim on site.

 

[Gino]

If all you're gonna do is decorate the faces, then you should have the party who is actually gonna do the instal go up there and get you all the correct measurements. If we were doing the entire job ourselves, it would be on me, if someone measured or figured wrong. Then we'd be up in the air with our thumbs up our butt saying.... wha.... wha.... wha.... wha.....

Taking on a job like this or any job for a customer, you need to take on the responsibility of making things go as smoothly as possible. Getting 'almost or close'.... only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes, not when you have absolutes to deal with, but aren't willing to do it.

I have another question. At that size.... if you installed some bumpers, why couldn't you use flat faces ?? I know the pan will give support, but so will bumpers. We have faces in signs that are much bigger than that and the bumpers prevent any blowouts or other problems. The largest one to date we did was 10' tall by 36' wide. No pans. Then we did one 9' tall by about 24' wide. All used bumpers inside. Sure, there's a little flexing but with 12" and 14" cans, that's plenty of room for flat faces.
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[MikePro]

you wasted a bit of time by taking a truck out there and not get a complete survey.
cabinet size, v.o., and retainer size is essential and it's also worth the effort to pull off one of the retainers to get a good look inside of the sign's construction & potential service needs ...or you may as well have not gone at all.

buuuut now that you're stuck here, may as well keep moving forward:

typically, a 2' retainer holds 1.75" of plastic, but without knowing for certain then I wouldn't assume this to be true in all cases.

may as well just make your plastic to the cabinet size, assuming that your guys will have to jigsaw-cut one side and the top of the plastic onsite to fit.
make sure your bottom is square. top&sides can be rough-cut.
if the bottom line of your plastic isn't square, it won't sit square in the retainer, and your graphic won't be square with the sign.
for this reason, we usually leave the factory-edge clearly marked as our bottom.

 

[phototec]

If we were doing the entire job ourselves, it would be on me, if someone measured or figured wrong. Then we'd be up in the aor with our thumbs up our butt saying.... wha.... wha.... wha.... wha.....

Taking on a job like this or any job for a customer, you need to take on the responsibility of making things go as smoothly as possible. Getting 'almost or close'.... only counts in hand grenades and horseshoes, not when you have absolutes to deal with, but aren't willing to do it.

I agree 1000% - if it's worth doing - it worth doing right!