Need Help HELP: Roland sold me a defective printer and I lost $750,000

[greysquirrel]

The only way this was a perfect fit is if CP only sold roll to roll machines. Did they carry another flatbed option at the time? If not then they where not lying to you. Printing direct should always be faster than two and three step and the printer can give you a white option if needed. Maybe they where including mounting, laminating and trimming into the equation? Every printer has a spec sheet. On that spec sheet are the speeds that the unit can perform. Have you ever fact checked your printer to the sheet? Again, a better way to go rather than calling it a lemon.
Was the printer in a clean room? isolated? or in a warehouse where you guys are cutting and fabricating the corn hole boards?
You mentioned that they replaced a head that failed from dust. If so, technically they did not have to even do that for you. Environment and head crash are not covered with any printer warranties. So I am just not sure after two months of use, the printer may have not run at speeds you had hoped for and a head was replaced from what the manufacturer deemed as your environment being a contributing factor that you have a lemon.
Do you have anything in writing that promises speed? If so, that is the angle you take.

I don't think any of us on here think that you don't have a right to be upset. I think we've all made some purchases that have not worked out. Want a pre-treater? I have previously worked for a reseller as a service manager for 12 years, so I understand the process involved with problematic machines and unhappy customers. I can tell you that if the product had an issue that could not be repaired or had a defect, the manufacturer would do anything they needed to do to make it right. None of them want bad public exposure. I worked directly with HP, Epson and Roland, Seiko, Summa, Graphtec, Seal, GFP, Onyx and Caldera. Every single one of them have always stood by their product and would do whatever was necessary to get a printer back in spec, performing normally. I have personally had to request 4 printers in 12 years to be returned and swapped by the manufacturer because of an issue that could not be repaired. Before the returns happened, either a field engineer or the manufacturer's head tech would come onsite with me to our customer's location to try to isolate and resolve the issues.

If the product is not right, and they cannot make it right, they will always offer to swap. If its not reaching your expectations, that is a whole other thing. Mark or anyone at Roland has no business trying to help you sell your printer. If CP is your reseller and they value your consumable business, they will do anything in their power to help retain you as a customer and get you to a happier place because they want your next major purchase. If CP is not your main supplier, then the chances of them helping is non existent. This is why relationships in the industry are important. It should never be about price. No reseller can always have the cheapest price. Sometimes its ok to pay more for a product knowing that someone is there to help when you have an issue with media, application or just sourcing.

I'm now back on the other side in business for myself. Before I purchased my flatbed, I attended the major shows earlier in the year. I had spent over two hours in the booth going through the whole printer with the engineer running the device finding out the good the bad and where the growth of the product was going to be and when. I knew that the product was still evolving and would continue to evolve. I went to a demo at a local reseller(not my previous company/they were not selling the product) The product did everything I was hoping for. Once other resellers where aware I was looking to make a major purchase, I was surrounded by better pricing. I ended up purchasing from the company that spent a morning with me demoing the unit. Not because of their price(they were not the cheapest) but because I had already started to build that relationship. We had a couple of issues at the beginning that the manufacturer was working through. Ultimately, they helped resolve the issues and had my back the entire way and I have been a loyal customer ever since. No single vendor can get 100% of anyone's business....but I can guarantee you that they get 70-75% of mine.

 

[Billct2]

I would have a discussion with my lawyer and see if I had any legal recourse.

 

[Rebel Graphics]

I would have done my research and have them print samples before spending that much money.
What’s done is done, learn from it and move on.
If the printer is functional and already in place, why not put it to work so it pays for itself? It’s been 2yrs, if you’re that busy would have been paid off.... a real PITA but paid off and you could sell it afterwards for the 10-15k you’ve been offered.

 

[iPrintStuff]

Worth asking; does it print well at any quality? Can’t it be in operation as an overflow printer? Or find a different use for it?

 

[Brian ONeil]

I don't understand why, if the demo model didn't meet your demands, why in the heck did you accept the leased unit ??

When you tested the machine for speed with your files when looking into this, was it what you wanted ?? You would've had to be seeing the machine you borrowed. Don't tell me you blindly bought a machine without seeing it. That Porsche you compared it to, would you have it delivered or would you go test drive it, first. AND then check it against other models ??

Had Rolands since about 1993 and when I had a problem, Roland and it's reps, stepped right up and fixed everyrhing, usually on their dime.

If you researched it, it seems to me, your research department is lacking in skills, whether newbie or not.

Gino,

I had gone up and seen the printer print and on a single pieces print and on foam core it was impressive. We needed to print high volume of smaller products so they crunched the numbers and gave me a a per piece time. With this info I bought it. A few weeks later when we really tried to do production runs on our product is when we had all types of problems but both the Roland Tech and CP sales reps that were very nice led me to believe the issues we were having were due to inexperience printing on the machine and not having all the settings worked out and needing jigs that would speed up the loading and unloading. Unfortunately I believed them because I did not know better and while we did build jigs and tweaked every setting it barley improved the over all speed in which is printed at.

CP also sold Mimaki but I think because I reached out directly to Roland who put me in touch with CP being their local dealer there was a hesitation for CP to tell me this was not the right unit. Again Mark from Roland came out to may facility and saw what we make and the quantity we needed to make them in and never said anything about this printer not being the right printer.

 

[Brian ONeil]

Worth asking; does it print well at any quality? Can’t it be in operation as an overflow printer? Or find a different use for it?

We did try this for a little bit but our other printer is so much faster and better we could never figure out a product that we could make that made sense.

 

[iPrintStuff]

We did try this for a little bit but our other printer is so much faster and better we could never figure out a product that we could make that made sense.

I only asked because we have a Colorado that can literally print 16x faster than our old mimaki but still use the mimaki every now and then for small jobs while the Colorado is doing larger runs

 

[Brian ONeil]

The only way this was a perfect fit is if CP only sold roll to roll machines. Did they carry another flatbed option at the time? If not then they where not lying to you. Printing direct should always be faster than two and three step and the printer can give you a white option if needed. Maybe they where including mounting, laminating and trimming into the equation? Every printer has a spec sheet. On that spec sheet are the speeds that the unit can perform. Have you ever fact checked your printer to the sheet? Again, a better way to go rather than calling it a lemon.
Was the printer in a clean room? isolated? or in a warehouse where you guys are cutting and fabricating the corn hole boards?
You mentioned that they replaced a head that failed from dust. If so, technically they did not have to even do that for you. Environment and head crash are not covered with any printer warranties. So I am just not sure after two months of use, the printer may have not run at speeds you had hoped for and a head was replaced from what the manufacturer deemed as your environment being a contributing factor that you have a lemon.
Do you have anything in writing that promises speed? If so, that is the angle you take.

I don't think any of us on here think that you don't have a right to be upset. I think we've all made some purchases that have not worked out. Want a pre-treater? I have previously worked for a reseller as a service manager for 12 years, so I understand the process involved with problematic machines and unhappy customers. I can tell you that if the product had an issue that could not be repaired or had a defect, the manufacturer would do anything they needed to do to make it right. None of them want bad public exposure. I worked directly with HP, Epson and Roland, Seiko, Summa, Graphtec, Seal, GFP, Onyx and Caldera. Every single one of them have always stood by their product and would do whatever was necessary to get a printer back in spec, performing normally. I have personally had to request 4 printers in 12 years to be returned and swapped by the manufacturer because of an issue that could not be repaired. Before the returns happened, either a field engineer or the manufacturer's head tech would come onsite with me to our customer's location to try to isolate and resolve the issues.

If the product is not right, and they cannot make it right, they will always offer to swap. If its not reaching your expectations, that is a whole other thing. Mark or anyone at Roland has no business trying to help you sell your printer. If CP is your reseller and they value your consumable business, they will do anything in their power to help retain you as a customer and get you to a happier place because they want your next major purchase. If CP is not your main supplier, then the chances of them helping is non existent. This is why relationships in the industry are important. It should never be about price. No reseller can always have the cheapest price. Sometimes its ok to pay more for a product knowing that someone is there to help when you have an issue with media, application or just sourcing.

I'm now back on the other side in business for myself. Before I purchased my flatbed, I attended the major shows earlier in the year. I had spent over two hours in the booth going through the whole printer with the engineer running the device finding out the good the bad and where the growth of the product was going to be and when. I knew that the product was still evolving and would continue to evolve. I went to a demo at a local reseller(not my previous company/they were not selling the product) The product did everything I was hoping for. Once other resellers where aware I was looking to make a major purchase, I was surrounded by better pricing. I ended up purchasing from the company that spent a morning with me demoing the unit. Not because of their price(they were not the cheapest) but because I had already started to build that relationship. We had a couple of issues at the beginning that the manufacturer was working through. Ultimately, they helped resolve the issues and had my back the entire way and I have been a loyal customer ever since. No single vendor can get 100% of anyone's business....but I can guarantee you that they get 70-75% of mine.

A few notes. CP also sold Mimaki but I think since I called Roland originally and the lead came into CP that way they were reluctant to reccomend a different printer. This Roland UV printer was the first and last printer that CP sold as there were many other problems behind the scenes behind CP and Roland that had nothing to do with the poor performance of this machine.

We have a large wood shop separated by walls and curtains and dust collections system so no this printer was not in a workshop environment and just so we are clear our new printer is right next to the Roland and has run for over a year and never experienced any type of issue like the Roland.

All I asked was for this to be swapped out as Roland made some smaller desk top versions that would have been perfect but they said no. Then a few months ago Roland launched a brand new commercial UV flat bed IU-1000F that from the dealers I spoke to failed to print during a trade show but I still would have taken one to see if it would work better that what I have?

 

[Brian ONeil]

I would have a discussion with my lawyer and see if I had any legal recourse.

Just to give everyone an update since posting this I have been contacted by 4 other owners of this same printer who have all been battling Roland with similar problems. I knew I was not alone and there had to be other people in this position. The idea is to get as many together as possible and figure out the proper way to fight this. At $89k each this is over $450K in damages and I am sure lawyer would like to look at this.

Just to show you how Roland is hiding all of this when a high ranking person at Geneva Capital reached out to me to understand my problems he told me Roland was one of their biggest customers. I asked him had he ever seen and problem with this specific printer. He said he had never heard of any problem with this printer. What is strange is I had been told by another person they were having the same exact problem and were also dealing with Geneva Capital?

So I asked the executive from Geneva Capital to send me in writing that he had no knowledge of any issues with this printer. See below email


Hello,

I am requesting some type of written documentation from Geneva Capital that the problems relating to with the specific model of printer I have the Versa UV LEJ-640FT from Roland were not known. As we discussed many times that there had to be other customers with the same issues and that someone at Geneva Capital would have known about it since you do so much business with Roland but I was told on more than one occasion that no one at Geneva had any knowledge of any problems with this specific printer. Can you please confirm this.

Brian, I cannot make a statement to your request. There are too many broad variables to what you are requesting. We are strictly the finance company. As I have written to you many times, any issues you have with the equipment are between you and Roland. Please refer to Paragraph 6 of the Master Lease Agreement.

I going to need something from you on this? I am being very specific on the exact make and model of this Roland UV printer and I am no way being too broad. I have asked if you knew about existing issues with this same make and model printer from Roland and you verbally told me you knew nothing and no one else at Geneva had either. Now if that has changed let me know?

Brian, My answer is the same as above.

People will tell you everything you want to hear but when you ask for it in writing the come up with ridiculous reasons thy they cant do it. Like it is too broad? Really I am asking if you have ever had any issues with the exact make and model of the Roland printer I have. How is that too broad???

Obviously this is a CYA to the max as Geneva does not want to loose Roland as a customer but the only person getting punished is the little guy, like me. When an $89K printer drops in resale to $15K in less than 2 years clearly shows that Roland is making a terrible product that no one wants and the people who did buy them got screwed!!

 

[greysquirrel]

Im not sure why Geneva would make any comments one way or another in writing. At the end of the day they have nothing to do with this. They know why you are asking for something in writing. The LEC rolls to roll printer that this flatbed was based off of was slow as well. Im not sure why this would have been different...its the same printer with tables. Their model after this was niche as well...able to print on 6" media...also slow.
I have never seen a manufacturer swap a printer out for a different model. They only replace like for like...their smaller desktops are even slower...not sure what you would gain there either...

 

[Notarealsignguy]

A finance company has nothing to do with what you choose to buy and any problems that come with it. Honestly, there are lemons and poorly engineered products sold everyday, that's just life. You can go to battle with them and throw more money at bad but it's just pissing in the wind. The fact of the matter is the printer works just not to your expectations which will be a tough sell in court no matter what they told you. Either walk away or sell it and pay off the balance. It was a mistake to buy it and frankly a little due diligence would have went a long way here.

 

[CanuckSigns]

We had issues with Roland, we were early adaptors of the Tru-Vis printers and we had nothing but issues, in the end our dealer had to swap it 3 times due to various issues we had that they couldn't fix. In the end the dealer bought it back from us for what we paid for it, but Roland didn't reimburse them, and I think it's still in their showroom due to issues.

Roland will ignore you until you go away, that's what they did with us and a few other people I've contacted.

Now in regards to your issue, did you not do a production run of your product on the demo printer prior to purchasing it? If not then that's on you. All print speeds advertised are always for non production processes, the fastest speed the machine can physically print, printing at those speeds produces horrible prints that no one would sell.

Sales people will lie and tell you whatever you want to hear to make a sale, always verify their claims with either real world testing or researching on your own.

 

[iPrintStuff]

Now in regards to your issue, did you not do a production run of your product on the demo printer prior to purchasing it? If not then that's on you. All print speeds advertised are always for non production processes, the fastest speed the machine can physically print, printing at those speeds produces horrible prints that no one would sell.

This. Canon made a big thing about being able to print 159 sqm/hour on our Colorado but I haven’t even bothered to make profiles for it on anything other than cheap banner. The print is horrible and washed out looking. Not to mention crazy banding. (Could probably fix the banding but no point).

definitely need to see a demo of it printing on your materials at speed/quality you’re happy with before giving anybody any money.

 

[ams]

Many people don't know how to operator their equipment. I've seen and purchased some awful printers that people destroyed and then they blame the manufacturer when it's their own fault. Roland is an industry standard, their equipment is top notch work horses. I would not blame them for the issues.

Is it possible to get a piece of faulty equipment? yes of course. However you get a warranty and it would be replaced or fixed at no charge. If you say Roland gave you the middle finger, then I know you are lying or else you cussed them out and they don't want to deal with you.

 

[Notarealsignguy]

Many people don't know how to operator their equipment. I've seen and purchased some awful printers that people destroyed and then they blame the manufacturer when it's their own fault. Roland is an industry standard, their equipment is top notch work horses. I would not blame them for the issues.

Is it possible to get a piece of faulty equipment? yes of course. However you get a warranty and it would be replaced or fixed at no charge. If you say Roland gave you the middle finger, then I know you are lying or else you cussed them out and they don't want to deal with you.

I hope that you're not still mad that I took your screen name but most everyone knows the Roland flatbed was a turd as is their new line of printers. At least they were initially. Manufacturers aren't always quick on fixing problems

 

[DPD]

I have never owned a Roland and telling you what you should have done is no help to you.

You're in deep. As others have said it's time to cut your losses and then talk to a lawyer.

Woulda, coulda, shoulda. Get out of this and don't look back.

 

[lbpalm]

L.A.W.Y.E.R.

 

[Gino]

Good luck with your class action case. If you think Roland is lowlife and took your money, wait til you hire a lawyer. I still don't understand how someone lost $750k on a $90k printer in this short amount of time ?? If the orders were not in your hands as actual jobs, you did not lose a thing. Projections will not work in a court of law. Only concrete solid evidence will work, which yours seems to be very sketchy. Sure, you bought a lemon, in your opinion, but what did you do to service those $750k worth of jobs ?? Did you farm them out ?? Did you try other avenues ?? Did you discuss with your customers what other means you were taking to fulfill their orders ?? Or........ did you just sit back and b!tch a whole lot to someone who couldn't do anything about it ??

Sometimes, we get in our own way and then try to figure out how to get outta the jam we just put ourselves into. It's not always the other person's fault. You'll need to look very closely at all the facts, take ALL the emotion out of the equation and decide what is really gonna serve you and your business best, along with your lost customers.

 

[Texas_Signmaker]

Would be very interest to hear Roland's side of this.... Parts of this story aren't connecting and it seems there is missing information.

 

[printhog]

Ive had a similar problem with another printer manufacturer years back, and due to the terms of our settlement agreement, I agreed to never discuss the nice settlement they paid me. Hire an attorney, because the false advertising and questionable speed claims amount to fraud. You will prevail on that. We might have, I just can't say. Look for Sherman Clayton antitrust for the requirement to use their brand of inks. We might have had their nuts to the fire on that, but I cant say. I really don't know why they settled. It might have had something to do with the Federal Judge saying "I can't say they don't have a case here" to their lawyers when they asked him for dismissal.... next day we were all in a settlement conference.

whatever you do realize that Geneva is not on the hook. work with them or get burned. If you want a new machine, tell them and explain that you want to do a deal with them for machine #3, but you need concession on this turd. They can take it back, and do a deal, and likely would... if they were called by your attorney. The fact is that they know they cant sell the turd on used market any better than you can. So maybe you 3 way this - get your new machine thru geneva, and find a small shop to take over the turd lease but at longer-term and lower monthly through geneva. win win win. You said it prints fine for certain work.. then get someone who would like that type of work capability. A small shop that would be willing to lease it as low hours. Or a high school's trade classes... or whatever. at least then you get machine #3, and get rid of turd..