I don't know that lawyers are going to help much other than drain your bank account - I know from my own start up experience that we demo'd Roland, Mimaki , and some others - All of the reps were equally helpful, printed our test files on our materials and so on . Found out very quickly that your fluency with the software, machine settings and your skill at setting up the files / art your printing makes a huge difference in the output you get from the machine .
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Need Help HELP: Roland sold me a defective printer and I lost $750,000
- Thread starter Brian ONeil
- Start date
Zendavor Signs
Mmmmm....signs
It is heartbreaking to invest so much time and money to trying to make a machine work well when it is just not a good fit for what you are trying to do. I bought a Colorspan UV printer years ago that was a terrible fit for what we were trying to accomplish. I took a huge hit when we unloaded it. I did not do due diligence before purchasing the printer. The next flatbed I bought I demo'ed extensively, and it turned out to be a great printer. It was an expensive lesson. It sounds like you have learned that same lesson, with your 2nd machine being a great fit. Lawyers, etc are just going to drain you financially and emotionally, as well as distract you from what you need to be doing - guiding your business and selling more jobs. I would take whatever you can get for it, as soon as you can, then move on.
Brian ONeil
New Member
I 100% understand the finance party is not at fault but here is where is gets complicated. I purchased the Roland equipment through a local dealer Central Paper by leasing it through Geneva Capital. My issue with Roland who has done nothing to help. Central Paper does not carry the new printer I bought so therefor there are no consumables they can sell me. No one had done anything to help me get through this and he idea of switching to the smaller UV printers that Roland offers was only because we potentially could use these for one off orders. Again Roland said no to this and due the way this deal was done everyone can just blame the other guy?
The idea is that there are many people who are in this sample position and with Geneva being the top financier for them you would think they would know if a particular printer was having problems. When I had been told many times very confidently they have never had any but they wont touch this by putting in in writing is more comical.
Gino
Premium Subscriber
You seem to be committed to finding someone who will go against company policy(s). I highly doubt you are the first person this has happened to or will be the last, but you are the reason..... or kinda reason, they cannot step up. There is too much splitting of hairs over, he said, she said, they said and coming up with the same results. No one will go to bat for you, unless you find some softie who will say something, but you have so much other baggage going against you, it won't amount to much of anything in your favor.
At many different levels, this same scenario has happened to most of us. Mine two were, one for about $85k and another one about $35k. Ya move on and pray ya never do it again and believe me, you will read ALL the fine print next time and do your due diligence job of doing your homework beforehand and not just listening to whatever anyone tells you.
At many different levels, this same scenario has happened to most of us. Mine two were, one for about $85k and another one about $35k. Ya move on and pray ya never do it again and believe me, you will read ALL the fine print next time and do your due diligence job of doing your homework beforehand and not just listening to whatever anyone tells you.
Brian ONeil
New Member
I understand all this and by no means did we not test before buying but the true production run for our product was done or calculated with the Roland Tech and CP sales person and given to me. I based my decision to buy based on these numbers and this is my mistake. This is the crux of my argument and understand it gets very technical. The numbers I was quoted were from the CP salesperson who was a nice guy and had no reason to lie and when I have pushed him on them he said he got them from Roland? It is a very difficult situation but the only thing I know is that I was significantly hurt financially because these number were wrongs and the Printer does not work as advertised when I bought it. There are many Roland dealers who will not sell this unit specifically because of all the problems and many who will speak only off the record of how bad this machine really is but due to how these deals get made it is very hard to make Roland be held responsible.
FYI, on the second printer I bought I flew my guys to the facility and put it through its paces for days before buying so I did learn my lesson.
The job I had was for a very large order for high profile customer and this is why Mark from Roland and the sales team of Central Paper came to my location to see the product and the volume we needed to make it in. Never once did they question if this was the right machine and if it could handle it. Everyone told me this was a great machine and it was more than capable and Mark from Roland even asked me to send him some product for his office!
I am a nice guy who I guess was way too trusting and therefore I got burned. The loss I took from not being able to complete this job almost killed me and to have paid as much money as I have for nothing and now know that I will need to turn the printer in and still owe close to $40K is unimaginable.
Hopefully something good will come from this as the list of other customers that have had problems is growing and many people have been fighting Roland longer than I have and have some good ideas.
Brian ONeil
New Member
Look I am not trying to get anyone one to go against policy? The idea is I was told the printer I was buying was perfect for the product I needed to make and at large quantities and without a doubt this piece printer is not right for that application and may just in fact be a piece of equipment that has nothing but problems.
If other Roland dealers wont sell this printer because of issues it is most likely because people like me had to buy them and have problems to the point the dealer now wont sell them? If this is the case why shouldn't Roland be responsible to fix the solution. It also doesn't seem as though if we got another version of the the same machine it would have helped as there are people messaging me they had their units replaced by Roland and had the same problem with the new one?
Gino
Premium Subscriber
No, you look. We're all trying to comfort you and we all feel bad for you, but sometimes the best laid plans are not always gonna work, such as in your case. You keep saying they were nice people.... evidently they are not good people, if they outright lied to you.
Your biggest thing you need to take from this whole ordeal is..... he said, they said whoever said does not work in a court of law when things go wrong. ONLY written and signed documents work. For instance, if your loan person took you at your word, you could easily say, I'm not gonna pay another red cent. This thing doesn't do what all those people said it would do. Then they're out the money...... but noooo..... they had you sign all kindsa paperwork, just for cases like this.
Good luck, cause I was in two class action suits. One about 25 years ago and the other one about 15 years ago. There were about 28 other people involved in the first one. I was the only person to get anything outta the deal. Guess why. I had all my stuff documented. The second one, about 10 different companies and the same thing. I had all my stuff documented and the guy went to jail, but I still got my money back. The others were all left holding their joysticks saying wha..... ?? Then, they got mad at me, cause I knew what I was doing. People are weird and when money is involved, things get a whole lot funkier.
Your biggest thing you need to take from this whole ordeal is..... he said, they said whoever said does not work in a court of law when things go wrong. ONLY written and signed documents work. For instance, if your loan person took you at your word, you could easily say, I'm not gonna pay another red cent. This thing doesn't do what all those people said it would do. Then they're out the money...... but noooo..... they had you sign all kindsa paperwork, just for cases like this.
What other Roland dealers say and do... have nothing to do with you and your conversations with your people. Your only mistake was for you not to get it in writing.
Good luck, cause I was in two class action suits. One about 25 years ago and the other one about 15 years ago. There were about 28 other people involved in the first one. I was the only person to get anything outta the deal. Guess why. I had all my stuff documented. The second one, about 10 different companies and the same thing. I had all my stuff documented and the guy went to jail, but I still got my money back. The others were all left holding their joysticks saying wha..... ?? Then, they got mad at me, cause I knew what I was doing. People are weird and when money is involved, things get a whole lot funkier.
White Haus
Not a Newbie
This x1000.
You're wasting time and energy beating a dead horse. You'll only waste more time, energy, and money trying to point fingers and get someone other than yourself to take the blame. (as you've seen, they won't) You've admitted repeatedly that you're partially at fault here and I think we all agree with you. A lawyer or judge will too.
Find a use for it, or offload it, and move on.
If you truly believe your printer is faulty try finding a company with the same machine you have, ask them to print a sample so you can compare the results, speeds etc. If your machine doesn't perform the same you have all the right to go to court.
But honestly I thing you was just too lazy to properly test your printer and hoped somebody will deal with your problem instead of yourself and you're angry and desperate at this point as you know it's your fault.
Print speeds are always given at draft quality and it's the theoretical maximum speed you can archive, just like internet speed, car speed, car consumption etc.
But honestly I thing you was just too lazy to properly test your printer and hoped somebody will deal with your problem instead of yourself and you're angry and desperate at this point as you know it's your fault.
Print speeds are always given at draft quality and it's the theoretical maximum speed you can archive, just like internet speed, car speed, car consumption etc.
Dave Sears
New Member
glad to see you are calling Roland out on this.
They've done it before. Anyone remember the PC-60?
They've done it before. Anyone remember the PC-60?
Jay Grooms
Printing, Printing, Printing......
I have a LEJ-640, yes they're SLOW.
If you have anything is writing about the speed and "software tweaks" I think you'd do pretty well in court. If you don't.... looks like the printer is yours to keep.
If you have anything is writing about the speed and "software tweaks" I think you'd do pretty well in court. If you don't.... looks like the printer is yours to keep.
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Brian ONeil
New Member
For someone who has been in 2 lawsuits over the something similar would think you would be a little more understanding. I have speeds from the CP rep and this is what I will use for evidence.
Brian ONeil
New Member
I was not lazy in this process at all. I was new to printing and did not realize that I personally needed to witness the tests on my products being printed that I sent to them to personally verify the speed. I also did not think that a large company like Roland would not tell the truth! Or if I had a problem run away and hide as if I was not a customer!
I will gladly have someone else with this same printer do a test but I can not find anyone with this printer who isn't having a problem! Pretty sure with the activity of this post if someone was out there that had this printer and thought it was great they would have spoken up by now.
How is that possible that a large manufacturer like Roland can make a printer and sell it at $89K that is a POS that I am stuck paying for and some how I am the bad guy in this situation?
Brian ONeil
New Member
Thank you. Roland shows this printer on their website so another unsuspecting person could be getting ready to be suckered in just like me, but hopefully they read this post in time.
I have been sent several messages of people who can not share their stories on here because as part of their settlement of signing a waiver or NDA but there seems to be solutions for their bad behavior.
Im all for constructive posts or problem solving or learning from others experiences but to be fair ... what kind of widgets were you trying to print, How many did you need to make in a day / an hour - single layer ? what kind of material double sided ? Did you have to cut & sew or was it a wrap . Did you have a backup printer in case the main went down. Was your production done previously on a different machine set or was this a first time set up that was not dialed in . What machine did you go to after the Roland - When did you actually install the Roland ? Did the Reps and Techs actually set up your production run and do a time study on the product s you wanted to make ? Can you post some pics of the finished product from the roland and from the new printer . It may be that folks here have encountered the issues and know how to get good output . It would be a good thing if you were able to use the Roland and the newer machine.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
Best questions I've heard yet in this thread
Notarealsignguy
Arial - it's almost helvetica
Legit question, why all this 2 years later? It makes your case and a resolution much more difficult.
Id be angry too but just being a realist here. You cant fight city hall. The whole lawsuit thing sucks. Both sides try to wear you down through inconvenient hearings and ongoing depositions. Your contract probably stipulates venue so you will be paying your lawyer to travel to this stuff. If you go forward, set a budget and expect to settle for about 1/2 what youre after unless you go to trial.
The problem is that its financed, Geneva isnt on the hook and roland isnt paying it off for you. So you can sell it for 20 and owe 20 or pay your attorney 5-10k, end up with 20 from roland and then still owe 20. I may be offbase but Id bet my lunch thats how it would go but you never know. Have a nasty gram drafted for a couple hundred bucks and see what their response is.
Id be angry too but just being a realist here. You cant fight city hall. The whole lawsuit thing sucks. Both sides try to wear you down through inconvenient hearings and ongoing depositions. Your contract probably stipulates venue so you will be paying your lawyer to travel to this stuff. If you go forward, set a budget and expect to settle for about 1/2 what youre after unless you go to trial.
The problem is that its financed, Geneva isnt on the hook and roland isnt paying it off for you. So you can sell it for 20 and owe 20 or pay your attorney 5-10k, end up with 20 from roland and then still owe 20. I may be offbase but Id bet my lunch thats how it would go but you never know. Have a nasty gram drafted for a couple hundred bucks and see what their response is.
Texas_Signmaker
Very Active Signmaker
I say bring it to Judge Judy...she will make the right decision.
